jesomil Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I am interested to find out peoples experiences in training soft or weak nerved dogs in high levels of obedience. Is it possible? I have competed alot in obedience over the years with 2 breeds that are solid and bombproof and can cope with with the stress and pressures that can be placed upon them. I now have a 1yr old soft breed (Kelpie) who excells at what he was bred for but doesnt cope with much pressure when it comes to obedience training. He does all the basics just fine but we are striving for a very high level of heeling etc not just doing it ok. I use motivational methods. He is the sort of dog that if asked to make too many decisions he will shut down or roll over. And a loud noise will make him jump. (he has received heaps of socialising etc but is genetically soft.) Has anyone had any experience in high levels of training with soft dogs or are the top triallers made up of all solid temperamented dogs? By the way, i got him purely as a herding dog and he is all i could ever wish for in that respect and is the most wonderful loyal friend ever but i was just wondering if weak nerves is a determining factor in obedience. Or do the soft ones just need alot more time and patience (maybe even a better trainer ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 My Kelpie cross is also weak nerved. She is dog aggressive as well. Noises can give her a fright, and she can take a while to recover. I had hoped to trial her in obedience or agility (more likely agility as that is what she really loves) but I got too frustrated with her dog aggression, especially at agility which is high stimulation and excitement. So for now we will just train at home until I can become a good enough trainer to fix her dog aggression. I am finding my GSD who is more stable easier in some ways as he is not fussed by anything, but at times can be more difficult to motivate. Very, very different to my Kelpie X in every respect in temperament! I am getting a Kelpie later this year, with the plan on agility and herding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Would like to know the answer too, as Darcy isnt as strong nerved as Nova in obedience and does start at noises while Nova just looks at whatever made the noise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazz Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) I would say I still have a long way to go but my Wei is a highly sensitive dog - to noise, new environments among many others I found I had to find something that drove her past her fears - in her case a *prey drive* for her ball, I also developed a strong relationship bond with her that she now trusts me in practically all situations, we still need work but she's at the point where I can take her out and know I have full control I no longer have to worry about *scaries* or shutting down when pressured she now trusts me enough to believe I won't put her in a bad situation. We compete in agility, obedience and soon to be flyball and gundog working tests - things I wouldn't have even thought I would be able to achieve when we first started. I'm sure K9 will have plenty of ideas about this senario too, so shall watch this thread. edit: just to prove anything is possible when it comes to our wonderful companions Edited January 18, 2006 by Hazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 In short yes you can do it but it takes time and a bit of creativity hanging out at shows and trals on the outskirts just letting them get usd to the going ons training in very short focussed sessions and by short a couple of minutes Being clear have an on and off switch for work start with just fifteen seconds and build from there The idea is that you dont want the dog to associate work with worry so you need to set things up very carefully. Also keep pressure off my sheltie is shocking sensstive the trees blowing is enough for him to go uhoh big monster when we first went to a club i asked for one sit then went for a walk then asked for another then went home you sound like your doing all the right things it just takes time and with weak nerves you can get them really confident then lose them because something changed in the environment its a real balancing act. Top triallers generally have strong nerved dog but i know of a few that have gone onto compete at our top dog runoffs Prey drive is great that can overcome a lot breaking things down into itty bits can also build confidence Without seeing the dog and you together its hard to know whats happening but if he has great herding ability then id say you'll have no probs bringing him up to speed in obedeince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Has anyone had any experience in high levels of training with soft dogs or are the top triallers made up of all solid temperamented dogs? K9: yes well they should be... Training a dog is about applying pressure, pressure to learn... A weak nerved dog is like trying to push a balloon with a pin, the tinyest bit of pressure & it bursts (like when you ask your dog to make too many decisions).. H hard nerved dog is like pushing a medicine ball with 4 x 2. You can really push training along fast... To train a weka nerved dog, the key points are as many stable aspects as possible, train & compete on same field if you can, with same dogs if you can, same commands, same steps pattern train the dog so that its all the same built on stability over time. Pick a motivator & make sure it creates positive drive, that means you must get food drive (not exchange food for action), or prey drive & develop it so that it will fly the whole trial... You need to encompass the dogs mind by reducing stress through removing variables & use a drive motivator to help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopenfox Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Hope is very sensitive and nervy and it's really hard work training her for trials. Late last year she gained her CD, so I'm looking forward to entering her in Open in March this year...but as I said - training her is exhausting! Heaps of tiny little training bits, scattered through every day. Going to as many distracting environments as possible to train. And using heaps of motivation...I've also learnt I can only enter her in one trial a day. By the second one she'll have realized toys, treats and encouraging words aren't rewarded during a trial and she'll completely shut down, thinking she must have done something wrong. Fox, my Kelpie is the total opposite. As soon as he knows we're 'working', no one and nothing else exists for him but me and the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxagirl Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Bondi is "weak nerved" and we are in the top class at obedience now, and got a tropjy :rolleyes: I have been training her just about everyday since I got her (8 weeks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I guess it depends on exactly what your definition of 'highly trained' is. My GSD is extremely weak nerved and yet he has trained beyond advanced obedience but having said that I could probably never trial him and if it were possible it would take an enormous amount of work. Once upon a time I intended on doing all that work and getting him to trial but then I realised what that meant for him, the kind of pressure I would be putting him under and decided it was too much more than I wanted to ask from a dog that has already given me so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna H Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 My GSP also has weak nerves, she is doing very well at obedience class (she's been going since about 10 weeks) and exceeds even her class standard at home... but put her in any other environment and she shuts down or becomes highly distracted. She does have high prey drive, but I am still having a lot of difficulting 'channelling' this in the right direction... I highly doubt she will ever make a top obedience dog outside of her club, but within the club I do expect she will gain her CD before too long as long as I don't push her too hard. She has certainly been a difficult dog to train...and it's still a work in progress! Fox, my Kelpie is the total opposite. As soon as he knows we're 'working', no one and nothing else exists for him but me and the work. This is exactly like my Cougar, a Kelpie X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Just a thought, does anyone else besides me think a nervous owner can make a nervous dog worse? A tight lead I have found a good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) I definitely agree with you Lablover. Also nervous riders make nervous horses worse and so on. I believe it's not just the lead but the breathing, the body posture and movement, the voice, the smell, and so on. Edited January 19, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Definitely Lablover! And I have been guilty of this with Zoe at times. I have noticed a marked improvement lately as somehow I seem to have broken the habit and am calmer when walking her even when there are other dogs around, and she has not been as reactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 Thanks for everyones feedback and experiences. By high level of training i mean striving for perfection and winning trials, not just basic obedience. My pup has sailed through advanced obedience and is obedient in every situation, he is not nervy but doesnt cope with much pressure. But my question has come through competing at high levels in several sports with a rottweiler who was solid and strong and it was quite easy to train and work with. The sky was the limit. We could aim for serious precision in heeling and advanced exercises were always fine. She could take whatever pressure i would throw at her. But this young fella will crumple easily. I guess it would be possible with alot of work to get to a certain standard but i guess the key to an awesome working dog is to start out with a solid temperament. I dont plan to do anything other than yard dog trails with my boy but was just wondering about the obedience stuff as i have found him quite frustrating when it comes to that. You have all given me interesting things to think about. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Just a thought, does anyone else besides me think a nervous owner can make a nervous dog worse? A tight lead I have found a good example. Guilty as charged. Im a complete wreck when i know people are watching, thats probably why we do so well when we are by ourselves.....i guess ive gotta train myself for distractions as well as the boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Just a thought, does anyone else besides me think a nervous owner can make a nervous dog worse? A tight lead I have found a good example. I definately think so. One of my Labs I was trialling trialled 14!! times before we got a pass. I fixed my nerves and we didn't look back. She never put a foot wrong in training but trial day she was different....or maybe she didn't like the wait outside the toilet, while I was being sick. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 K9: Your voice alone can be one of your greatest assets or biggest liabilities, & nerves are easily picked in the voice... Lablover you may remember the comments I made when Leanne handle her dog.. You can limit drive, elevate drive & build confidence with your voice if you use it right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 K9: Your voice alone can be one of your greatest assets or biggest liabilities, & nerves are easily picked in the voice...Lablover you may remember the comments I made when Leanne handle her dog.. You can limit drive, elevate drive & build confidence with your voice if you use it right.... Leanne is a cool customer. I will never forget watching her at the Royal in the UD ring. Her handling and her dog, made me cry. I also remember at a retrieving trial, where one of the dogs lost focus before being sent for a hidden bird across a river. I paused and set my brain into overdrive. What can I do, what can I do? I whispered hey hey hey, a known trigger, the dog lined the blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I've trained an extremely timid dog (ran away or shut down and refused to move) to her Novice Agility and Jumping Titles - and perhaps CD this year. I found agility did wonders for her confidence even though it took a very long time to build her confidence on the equipment. I found patience, consistency and no negative reinforcement worked wonders. Agility really changed that dog. If your dog is weak nerved it must have unflappable confidence in your leadership and total trust that you will keep it safe. You can build that by working hard on positive body language (even smiling looses your neck and shoulders) and by making the things that you wish to do in the ring "old hat". No "new" experience is a good experience for a weak nerved dog. You may never reach the absolute peak of competition but let me tell you that to take a dog who has zero confidence and build it up to the point of even a Novice title is both a rewarding and humbling experience. Never measure such a dog's performance against others but measure how far it has come and you will find satisfaction in training them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 A weak nerved dog is like trying to push a balloon with a pin, the tinyest bit of pressure & it bursts (like when you ask your dog to make too many decisions)..H hard nerved dog is like pushing a medicine ball with 4 x 2. You can really push training along fast... Good anaology! Funny but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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