Uncontrollable Urge To Pee. Stops On Vomit

[Muttaburra]

Hmmm, -scratches chin- hmmm and hmmm. -goes off to teach grandma how to suck eggs-.

All I can think of now is zoiboys suggestion of substituting rice - maybe the no clagging long grain.

A pinch of Iodised Salt might do instead of the kelp. Maybe cut out the carrots too. Have you tried giving 3 or 4 small meals instead of breakfast and dinner?

Glad you know about placing the hand around. A bit of my own story here, when Maxi gets hotspots on his little pink furless tummy (plant allergy-Plumbago) I stroke it very lightly with my fingertips and sometimes they just dissapear before my eyes. Amazing, havn't had the blistering for a long time.

[Erny]

Hmmm, -scratches chin- hmmm and hmmm. -goes off to teach grandma how to suck eggs-.

Honestly, Abs, if sucking eggs would fix this I'd do that too!

All I can think of now is zoiboys suggestion of substituting rice - maybe the no clagging long grain.

Yes - that's been on my mind too. Must admit though, "no clag" just doesn't seem possible for me .... and I do the same things others say they do. :D I could burn water. Hate cooking. )

Question to all here - (opinions required). Given that Kal has an appointment on 11th April for 2nd ultrasound on adrenal gland (to check if the size has changed), I thought to myself "no, don't change diet just yet" because if I change diet and there is vomiting etc etc. I kind of didn't want to have to add symptoms and then tell the Vet that these now may not relate to anything other than the change in diet or vice versa. Do you all think my logic is correct/feasible/sensible? I seek your opinions .... but please forgive me if I don't take them and go by 'gut' feeling in the end. At the moment I'm not sure if my thinking is coming from 'gut' feeling or not.

A pinch of Iodised Salt might do instead of the kelp. Maybe cut out the carrots too. Have you tried giving 3 or 4 small meals instead of breakfast and dinner?

Can't remember why I cut down on carrots - read something about them (not related to Kal's condition). What is it about them that you would suggest cutting them out completely, Abs?

What does the iodised salt do? (iodine supplement?) I know the chiro said to cut it out .... I think something to do with acidity/arthritis? I can't quite remember. Not that we're aware of arthritis affecting Kal just yet ... but she has had back problems in the past and we were concerned that might become a problem later.

Glad you know about placing the hand around. A bit of my own story here, when Maxi gets hotspots on his little pink furless tummy (plant allergy-Plumbago) I stroke it very lightly with my fingertips and sometimes they just dissapear before my eyes. Amazing, havn't had the blistering for a long time.

Abs .... please come pass your magic fingers over Kal . I believe in some funny things - some of which have basis and proof of reality, some don't. So long as there is no harm in it, I don't mind giving it a go.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Erny

[pampa]

Question to all here - (opinions required). Given that Kal has an appointment on 11th April for 2nd ultrasound on adrenal gland (to check if the size has changed), I thought to myself "no, don't change diet just yet" because if I change diet and there is vomiting etc etc. I kind of didn't want to have to add symptoms and then tell the Vet that these now may not relate to anything other than the change in diet or vice versa. Do you all think my logic is correct/feasible/sensible? I seek your opinions .... but please forgive me if I don't take them and go by 'gut' feeling in the end. At the moment I'm not sure if my thinking is coming from 'gut' feeling or not.

I'm at 6's and 7's here

I'd be torn between NOT wanting to change diet in case it DOES effect the adrenal gland somehow, thus "falsing" the ultrasound results, then NOT knowing whether the change is due to time itself or diet...

AND

CHANGING diet in order to "profit" from the ultrasound to see whether said change in diet has in fact had some positive/negative effect on the adrenal gland...

I guess if she has a tumour in there (in praying its not the case), it will unfortunately grow/change shape despite a change in diet...

If the ONLY thing you change is her diet (knowing that she may have some tummy upsets), any improvement could be put down to a diet related problem (getting back to Zoiboys' "Coeliac" suggestion)...

**so, up to now, I'm no hope whatsoever am I **

In conclusion, I don't think I would change her diet until she has the ultrasound on the 11th, then, depending on the results have a go at changing diet then...

I guess they are REALLY expensive, but, maybe you could book a 3rd ultrasound for May ???

Pawsitive french vibes coming through for the 11th

[zoiboy]

Hi Erny,

So you have around a month to wait for this test? How is Kal doing? Is she uncomfortable

or just a bit off?

Changeing her diet is not the greatest idea in reality before tests as it is possible they can test for coielac as well. Believe it or not I have actually seen 'gluten free' dog food (not often or reciently). Now if that can be done you can really interfeer with the test results if you change her feed. I don't know about the adrenal gland being affected by diet however.

Oh rice is just rice as far as clagging rice is concerned. Yeah over cooked rice is a bit gluggy

and there are types called glutons rice that are also just rice but refers to the cooked consistancy.

One of the things that coielac causes is a degree of mal nutrition that may be better some weeks than others. Depraved appitite is common in some people as well.

Chers

Linda

[Erny]

So you have around a month to wait for this test? How is Kal doing? Is she uncomfortable

or just a bit off?

She is her 'normal' off self ... but not "off" like she was the other day when she didn't want her breakfast.

Changeing her diet is not the greatest idea in reality before tests as it is possible they can test for coielac as well.

They can? Is it a blood test? If so, it would be easier and simpler (albeit more expensive) to have the test done - this at least would be conclusive.

One of the things that coielac causes is a degree of mal nutrition that may be better some weeks than others.

Kal's chiro was concerned about mal nutrition too. He suggested that a dog of her age should have a ring around just the outside of the colour part of the eye and this ring should be a bluish colour. In Kal's case, it is brown, and he suggested this indicates she's not absorbing sufficient nutrients.

Depraved appitite is common in some people as well.

Kal's "off food" moments are followed by vomiting .... then she seems to begin to pick back up again (to her normal "off" level).

I'm glad you guys have thought it best to wait for 2nd adrenal test before switching diet. Thank you - I wasn't sure if I was thinking it out properly or appropriately, because I know it can be viewed two ways.

Abs:

Have you tried giving 3 or 4 small meals instead of breakfast and dinner?

I forgot to respond to this in my last post, Abs. I thought about increasing the number of meals, (she used to only have one meal, but I increased that to two during the "bone removal stomach operation crisis) however this will prove difficult from a consistency point of view, as there are/will be days where I cannot be here all day and there is only me to look after her. I didn't want to get her (or her stomache) into a habit where she would be looking for meals when I couldn't be around to feed them.

Thanks for your responses, guys. Once again, it's great to have you there as my sounding board when I'm not sure what I'm doing is right or sensible, as well as for the additional suggestions and, of course, the endless support. Appreciated.

... depending on the results have a go at changing diet then...

I guess they are REALLY expensive, but, maybe you could book a 3rd ultrasound for May ???

Pawsitive french vibes coming through for the 11th

$187.00 AU, Pampa. Could be worse. I'd have a 3rd, if it deemed necessary and/or wise. Naturally, I would prefer not to have to spend the money, but like I have thus far, I will do so if it is thought to be of benefit for Kal.

Thanks for the good vibes. She really is fortunate to have so many people on her 'side' .... and she doesn't even know them.

:D

Thanks heaps.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Erny

[dogbesotted]

Erny,

Is Kal getting digestive enzymes and probiotics with her food? may be an idea.

[Erny]

Erny,

Is Kal getting digestive enzymes and probiotics with her food? may be an idea.

Hi Dogbesotted . When I last put her on this present "diet" for IBS reasons, yes, digestive enzymes and probiotics were a part of it. It was only supposed to be a diet for about 6 weeks or so. The addition of the digestive enzymes and probiotics (which, even after a break, I returned her to them) didn't seem to make any difference to the current symptoms which she still exhibits. At one stage, she was ill and I stopped them, thinking perhaps that was contributing. Now I doubt it, but it's difficult to tell at the time.) However, when I put her on the IBS diet for IBS reasons, the abdominal pain she seemed to have been experiencing did go away. I ran out of probiotics and because it was my intention to return her to a 'normal' diet I didn't replace. (I did include the enzymes and probiotics longer than the 6 week period too.)

Given that Kal's endoscopy showed a healthy stomach lining etc. etc., I'm even beginning to wonder if IBS was a correct diagnosis.

I never intended for Kal to be on her current "diet" for as long as she has been, because I thought (hoped) that we'd be able to determine the problem, perhaps even ruling out IBS as a cause or part of cause to abdominal pain, before now. The diet should have finished around October/November 2005. I began this torrent of serious Vet visits in December. And now here we are in March already. I still wonder about IBS .... it would be nice to determine what the problem is so I can re-adjust her diet to one which can provide more than what I am supplying.

Is this response as disjointed as it seems to me? Sorry. I have done and tried so many things, with symptoms coming and going and me trying more different things food/additive wise that it's difficult to know what was because of what and whether it was relevant at all. I am even beginning to forget/get confused about what order what went, given the long term (2 years) that I have seen symptoms come, go and come again.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Erny

[Muttaburra]

Well at least the 11th of April is not too far away now.

(I do rice in one of those plastic microwave ricecookers, 1 cup of rice to one and a half of water, 15 minutes on high, and you posititively cannot muck it up! )

Just thought the carrots might be a bit heavy in fibre and rich. I think it is Kerotene, that ingredient can cause a condition called Kerotosis in humans that are silly enough to go on a diet of carrot juice for a week. So I'm not thinking the amount Kal has as harmful, but maybe a bit rich for a sensitive (?) digestive system.

As regards the iodised salt, I thought if you had wanted the kelp for the iodine factor, then the salt would be a good subsitite. Tiny amounts of salt are not harmful and can help retain fluids a bit if there is a lot of fluid loss through diaohhrea. If you are not concerned about the iodine factor (vegies can also provide that) then I think celery has a natural salt and fluid balancing quality to it, it can be a bit of a diuretic but I think it is due to balancing things out. Other things like dandelion are more of a straight diuretic.

I just wish I could wave a magic wand and it would be all better.

I also wish I truly had magic hands that would fix things, Maxi's response I put down solely to his response to me, that the gentle stroking somehow turns off the histimine reaction due to it's calming effect on him. I still keep a tube of cortisone cream handy just in case.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Abergavenny

[pampa]

$187.00 AU, Pampa. Could be worse. I'd have a 3rd, if it deemed necessary and/or wise. Naturally, I would prefer not to have to spend the money, but like I have thus far, I will do so if it is thought to be of benefit for Kal.

HOLY COW

Well, taking THAT into account, two ultrasounds are hopefully, largely sufficient

[zoiboy]

She is her 'normal' off self ... but not "off" like she was the other day when she didn't want her breakfast.

They can? Is it a blood test? If so, it would be easier and simpler (albeit more expensive) to have the test done - this at least would be conclusive.

Kal's chiro was concerned about mal nutrition too. He suggested that a dog of her age should have a ring around just the outside of the colour part of the eye and this ring should be a bluish colour. In Kal's case, it is brown, and he suggested this indicates she's not absorbing sufficient nutrients.

Kal's "off food" moments are followed by vomiting .... then she seems to begin to pick back up again (to her normal "off" level).

Hi Erny,

They certianly can test for coeliac in humans with a blood test looking at 'antiglidens' and they have developed a stool test now that is apparently very accurate as well. That means the small bowel biopise is not nessary <g>.

Things like medications need to be looked at very carefully as well IF ceoliac is the problem as MOST medications have gluten in them.

Happy researching.

Cheers

Linda

[Erny]

I do rice in one of those plastic microwave ricecookers, 1 cup of rice to one and a half of water, 15 minutes on high, and you posititively cannot muck it up! ;)

This is ME we're talking about!

If you are not concerned about the iodine factor (vegies can also provide that)

This is why I think the chiro suggested I increase the "greens" (ie spinach, silverbeet etc.)

.... I think celery has a natural salt and fluid balancing quality to it, it can be a bit of a diuretic but I think it is due to balancing things out.

A bit OT, but to tell you that my Dad makes his own bread and tends to experiment with what he adds to the baking mixtures. Unbeknowns to me, someone gave him one of those big white buckets (with lids) filled with celery seeds, so he was putting some of the seeds in his bread each time he baked. Back then, I kept my horse on their property and as I used to ride in competition eventing, was at their place each night to work him. Mum (gem that she is), always concerned that I don't eat properly, would have tea on the table when I flew through and I'd always finish with a slice of Dad's bread, toasted (yum). Over the next few weeks, I couldn't work out why I needed to go to the loo so often - I felt fine, but did begin to wonder what this problem was. THEN I found out about the celery seeds. I did beg Dad to cease with adding them, and things returned to normal. So, I can certainly personally attest to the fact that celery seeds, at least, have that diuretic affect.

I just wish I could wave a magic wand and it would be all better.

Thanks for the wish, Abs. Me too. We'll get there. Thanks for your response. And you too, Zoiboy. I've made a note of what you've said about the blood & stool tests and the meds. Will address this and the Coeliac condition to the Vet when I take Kal on 11th April.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Erny

[Erny]

Update as at today:

Last week, on one of our (small) walks, Kal exhibited the uncontrollable urge to pee again. She must have squatted about 15-20 times in the space of 5 minutes.

The following morning, I was watching her walk through the family room on her way outside. Her back legs all of a sudden collapsed and she nearly fell completely over, except that they seemed to "kick back in" at the last moment and she was able to right herself. This is not the first time this has happened.

I took Kal to the Vet for a follow-up ultrasound. This shows that the adrenal gland on the righ hand side of her body has grown larger since the last ultrasound mid-February. The Vet said that the amount of enlargement is significant. As best as can be detected by ultrasound, the enlargement seems to be pressing against the major blood vessels which are located in this region. This did not show up on the last ultrasound. Apparently the ultrasound picture is "motally" (sp?) which indicates different tissues (by this I presume they mean tumour). By all accounts, it would appear that the enlargement has not actually invaded the blood vessels.

The Vet believes that the majority of Kal's symptoms could be being caused as a result of this "enlargement". The only one he can't factor into the equation are the two episodes of uncontrollable urges to pee (as reported to you here on DOL in February and now today).

I have asked Russell if there is anything else, separate from the enlarged adrenal gland that might be causing this (remembering and acknowledging that he is not "God" and can only go by the tests we have done). Eg. Another tumour elsewhere .... spinal? Russell is very confident that this would not be the case. He is as confident as he can be that we have already tested for other foreseeable possibilities.

Beyond the above, I don't know much else at this stage.

The recommended treatment is surgery, whereby this Adrenal Gland will be removed. There is not much else or, for that matter, anything at all, that we can otherwise do.

My Vet (Russell Mitten) is conferring with another specialist surgeon (Guy Yates) and Guy is to call me. I expect Guy will give me more of the nitty gritty information/details at that point.

They will NOT allow me to stay in the theatre while Kal is being operated on, even under my assurances that I am not a 'screamer' or 'fainter' and that I remain quiet. I only want to be there in the event of the unknown off chance that my presence will help Kal make it through the op. If she doesn't, and I'm not there, I'm always going to question myself. I have also found by previous experience that being present in the op I had a visual on what was done and that helped me comprehend the healing that was necessary afterwards, as well as how Kal might have been feeling during convalescence. But Russell tells me "they're the rules". I guess they've got to have them.

I'll post back once Guy has telephoned me and I know more about what is to happen and when.

[malleerr]

Good Luck with it all Erny!! I have been wondering how Kal has been going ever since i realised it was you that we saw in Werribee. Guy is Mallee's surgeon, well he did not do any of her ops, but has been doing all the follow up xrays and such since Sam left. I have found Guy really helpful and nice, but a bit slow on the telephone calls sometimes as he is really busy.....lol......he will kill me for saying that!!!! Good luck and i hope it all goes well for you and Kal.

Antoinette

[Erny]

Thank you, Antoinette. And I note from posts in your thread that Mallee's improving too ... hope that is continuing to be the case.

As for Guy being busy .... I'd rather a Vet who was busy because he/she put the time and effort into the dog, rather than one who focussed on phone calls (although both is nice ).

And I'd probably wonder about a Vet who isn't busy at all .... I'd be needing to know why. ;)

[dogbesotted]

jeez erny now i am getting nervous!

adrenalectomy is a very complicated operation. You must make sure that the surgeon is a Specialist in this area. It is not to be fooled around with. I cannot emphasise enough the need for a specilist suregon in this complicated field. ask guy how many successful adrenectomies he has done ( ie how many survived for some time after the operation) I am not trying to sound anti the surgery but have know of some successes more failures...the dog survived the surgery then died of complications. Forewarned is fore armed. read a lot and write down your questions.

24 hour close post operative monitoring and medicating is vital.

1. http://www.ava.com.au/avj/0302/03020034.pdf

2. http://www.newmanveterinary.com/CushingSx.html

3. http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/hy...nocorticism.htm quote from this paper:

Adrenal-dependent hyperadrenocorticism

Adrenalectomy is the treatment of choice for unilateral adrenal tumours provided there is no evidence of metastatic spread to vital organs such as the lungs. The affected gland is usually much larger than the other (which has atrophied), and the affected gland may appear to be calcified on radiographs.

Post-operatively both mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids must be given until the atrophied gland has returned to normal function. Wound healing is poor in dogs with hyperadrenocorticism

4. Surgical - Adrenalectomy

"Adrenal Tumor - Surgical removal is the treatment of choice for adrenal tumors. Each dog

must be assessed preoperatively for metastases or invasion of the tumor into surrounding

tissues. Adrenalectomy is technically challenging and should be performed by a skilled

surgeon. Approximately 50% of dogs develop severe postoperative complications,

including pancreatitis, pneumonia, pulmonary thromboembolism, acute renal failure,

sepsis, and hypoadrenocorticism due to insufficient steroid levels. The reported death rate

after adrenalectomy varies greatly; in two large studies the rate was 27% and 34%. It is not

known whether dogs with an FAT [Functional Adrenal Tumor] that undergo long-term

medical treatment before adrenalectomy have fewer post-operative and higher survival

rates. In dogs in which tumor removal was incomplete, clinical signs persist, or

hyperadrenocorticism recurs weeks to months after surgery. Autonomous cortisol

secretion results in atrophy of the zona fasciculata and zona reticularis and, in a few dogs,

of the aldosterone-producing cells of the zona glomerulosa. Thus glucocorticoid

substitution intraoperatively and postoperatively is necessary. Mineralocorticoid treatment

is instituted when required."

Source:

Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Sixth Edition, Stephen J. Ettinger, Edward C.

Feldman; Elsevier Inc. 2005

sending Kal many prayers for a successful outcome. You will both be tucked deep into my heart.

Helen

[Erny]

Thank you, DBS. Yet again I can rely on you to provide me with great information! I will look into the links you gave during the week. I think, right now, it is enough for me to know she needs an op of this nature. (By that, I mean, I'm not thinking as straight as I might prefer.)

I am aware of the serious risk involved. I have thought on this for some time now (ie even before it being confirmed).

With some of the things I see in Kal, and the way she is, there have been numerous times where I doubt she'll see out the next 6 months. I see the operation this way:

1. A risk that I will shorten her life span 6 months more than would otherwise be necessary (assuming my "guess" is correct).
   
2. Assuming she makes it through the op, perhaps making no difference to her life span/life quality at all.
   
3. Assuming she makes it through the op, possibly returning to her some additional time and quality of life.
   

The Vet I spoke to today (after the ultrasound) said they'd need to keep Kal in hospital for a number of days. IF she does well, then they MIGHT release her after 48 hours. She will spend the first 24 hours in ICU.

He has also informed me that recovery/convalesence period will be approximately 12 weeks.

I know that when we go in, I must be prepared that could well be my "goodbye" and that she might not return to me. But I will go with strong heart and faith that she will make it .... because that's what she needs from me. I'm a "bit removed" from the reality, just yet ..... it will hit me, I think, once surgery is scheduled.

I will ask Guy re success/failure rates he has encountered. I recall that Russell told me he had achieved many successes. My mind was a bit too numb to ask for "numbers" ... but this I will do once he calls me.

Aside from her age, Russell seems to feel that as much as possible is in our favour. Going by the ultrasound, the tumour is quite encapsulated and has not invaded the nearby blood vessels (as far as we can tell). Earlier in the piece (when we were investigating and didn't really know "what gives", but were guessing at things such as Cushing's), Russell talked of doing nothing and allowing her to live the life she has left until quality is too deficiant. Now he's talking surgery .... so I get the feeling he believes it should be done and that it is worthwhile trying.

I hope so. Thank you for your prayers for Kal. I have no doubt that along with my strong thoughts and feelings for her, they will help her through.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Erny

[pampa]

Oh damn it sweetheart, I was so desperately hoping that the gland hadn't changed size nor form, even if it meant you still didn't have any certainty of what was ailing Kal...

This is shitty, shitty news and I can't say much to enlighten your heart ;)

I'm not a religeous person but I'll be burning a 4th candle from now on... One for my girl, one for Ollie dog, one for the beautiful Lucinda and one for Kal, which until now didn't need to be lit

[tramissa]

Just wanted to say you and Kal are in my thoughts and prayers more than ever Erny.

If anyone can get through this it is you two.

[dogbesotted]

Erny,

what you are saying is great - encapsulated is VERY positive. I do not want to appear overly negative, in fact I am not...if your vet has this attitude and the knowledge that Kal will be in the hands of a specialist then you havewhat sounds like a good team.

With major surgery it is worthwhile having as much info at your hands before speaking with the vets so you can ask the right questions. Most of the failures I know about have been from surgery by "gung ho" vets who have felt that they could manage this challenging surgery and who had no real experience - so I felt it necessary to emphasise the importance of a specialist. Fiddling with the adrenals is always tricky but a successful outcome is usually very good.

sounds like all the i's are being dotted and the t's crossed....

many positive thoughts will be flooding the airways for Kal and for you, surgery is always scary but at times it is definitely the best option.

hugs

Helen

[Tassie]

Erny - just want to send you best wishes at this scary time for you. While it is very scary, I think the way you set it out sums it up. At least you're not wandering around in the veterinary wilderness wondering what is wrong and what you can do for Kal. Sounds like you've got some clear directions and possibilities now - sure it might not work, but at least it sounds like it's worth a shot, and even if (heaven forbid) the worst happens, you will know that you did all you could for Kal. No one could have done more. Lots of good thoughts and positive vibes coming your way, and Kal's.