Uncontrollable Urge To Pee. Stops On Vomit

[KOE]

I didnt mean you, you nut

[Erny]

I didnt mean you, you nut ;)

I know you didn't, Isaviz! (Although other of my friends would!). I do wonder about myself, though!

[Muttaburra]

when she whined ............. because her blanket had come off her and she wanted it back on. rolleyes.gif I put it on.

When I die I wanna come back as Erny's dog, (not the one he's go now). Erny you do sound like a very kind dog carer.

[Erny]

when she whined ............. because her blanket had come off her and she wanted it back on. rolleyes.gif I put it on.

When I die I wanna come back as Erny's dog, (not the one he's go now). Erny you do sound like a very kind dog carer.

;) Abs! Sssssssshhhhhhhhh. I told you - I gotta keep up my tough trainer image.

Now excuse me while I go pick up the other 5 doggy bed mattresses she's NOT at the moment sleeping on, and wash them ......

[haven]

When I die I wanna come back as Erny's dog, (not the one he's go now). Erny you do sound like a very kind dog carer.

HA you don't know the half of it ;)

Just FYI in case anyone is confused I'm outing Erny as a SHE, hope you don't mind Ern

[Erny]

I didn't realise peoples thought I was a "he" .... I tend to forget my name is a bit misleading - it ain't meant to be. It stands for:

EaRNYour rewards.

[KOE]

;) I thought you were a he too :D

[Erny]

;) I thought you were a he too :D :D

I think I better go get a wax job!

[Muttaburra]

OMG does this mean Dougie is a she too !!

I knew as soon as I'd written it that Murphy's law and the law of averages acting in tandem would by default mean the Erny was a she. ;)

[Erny]

OMG does this mean Dougie is a she too !!

;) Aaaaaaahhhhhhgggg!

Actually - that question has come up in one of the DOL threads recently .... someone said they thought he ... errrrmm, "she" was. But then wasn't certain. I can't help but call him a "he"

Besides, how can you make the letters contained in "D.O.U.G.I.E" into anything that would give him a reason to use it as a DOL name?

Doesn't

Often

Utter

Good

Inspirational

Encouragement

????? Maybe ?????

[Erny]

For those interested in the update (not that it gives a conclusive answer) ... Dr. Russell Mitten has responded to my email detailing the episode I related in my OP.

He writes:

"Kal's urine test on 10/01 was normal, no evidence of infection, blood or any abnormal cells. This makes an infection or tumour in the bladder or vagina very unlikely. The quantity of water that she drinks is also quite in order for her body weight, so no problems there.

What you describe does sound like lower urinary tract or genital tract irritation. The "twitching" of the vulva is also to be expected when there is the sensation of irritation in the area. I inspected the vulva, and it looked quite normal externally, but of course I did not attempt an internal examination. Simply feeling inside with the finger can occasionally be useful, but more often one needs sedation and a speculum to examine this area adequately. The other useful way to look at the area is ultrasound. If there are more such episodes, that is the way we would usually approach investigation.

The grass eating and subsequent vomiting is a dog's way of trying to deal with some type of abdominal discomfort. They certainly can go at it alarmingly at times. Isolated episodes are often hard to explain, so again, you will need to observe for further incidents. Let me know how things go, and also about her weight.

Best wishes

etc."

I understand about grass eating. I emailed Russell back, this morning, explaining that I'm curious as to the apparent connection between the vomit and the urge to urinate, which stopped the precise moment she vomited.

I wonder if Russell is suggesting I do the check of the vulva with my (gloved) finger? Wonder what I'd be looking for? Lumps? Bumps? Maybe I'd better go email him again ....

[KOE]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa I was close with the urinary tract thingy.

Hope she is better

cheers

[Clyde]

I'm curious as to the apparent connection between the vomit and the urge to urinate, which stopped the precise moment she vomited.

I wonder if Russell is suggesting I do the check of the vulva with my (gloved) finger?

Maybe there isn't a connection at all, and the two only happened coincidently. Perhaps the vaginal irritation caused her to feel a little bit upset in the tummy (even if only psychologically).

I would wait for the vet to give her an internal IMHO. You might only exasperate the problem??

I hope it's nothing too serious :D

[Erny]

Thanks, Dru. I asked my Vet about the vulva examination. He said he was speaking as a "Vet" and that I shouldn't do it .... my girl wouldn't like me for it. :D I said ok ... (I was relieved, but I'd do anything I had to, for her, if it were in my power.)

Having swapped another couple of emails since my last post, my Vet has concurred that something seems amiss. He says it is possible that the vomiting and the then immediate cessation of urination are connected. Without drawing any conclusions, we have touched on the subject of tumour. However, the Vet said her symptoms are vague and he advised I continue to visually monitor her and inform him of changes/new symptoms, as well as keep check of her weight over the next few weeks and then inform him.

I took Kal to see her chiropracter today. Although I definately suspected her back to be out (due to weakness in legs .... there are other symptoms of her apparent decline in wellbeing that I haven't mentioned in the OP because that wasn't the original purpose of the thread at the time), the chiro didn't find anything amiss - save that her shoulder/shoulder blade was a bit out.

When I go to the Chiro, I never say anything - I don't give clues as to what she's doing (at least, not at the outset) and wait for him to ask me questions.

He asked:

Q. How's she been?

A. Not good.

Q. Has she had/got any urination issues?

A. Yes.

Q. Is she intolerant to exercise?

A. Yes.

Q. Does she feel the heat, even when you would think she shouldn't (ie it's cool)?

A. Yes.

Q. Does she have difficulty in digesting/absorbing fat? (Naturally, he can see her weight loss.)

A. Yes.

He said:

"I would say tumour on the pancreas. At least ... something to do with the pancreas. Certainly, the problem lies in this area [at which time he indicated her middle section, from a bit further down the midpoint of her back, down to her rump]."

I won't go through the rest of our conversation word for word, but we had discussions relating to the pancreas, adrenocortisone, adrenalin, hippicampus and hypothelamus. Sorry for the techno terms if you're not familiar - I have a vague knowledge of them because I studied them for the thesus I wrote as part of my NDTF behaviourist requirement (topic = aggression). Anyway, that doesn't matter, but I did ask what was it that made him believe pancreas/pancreas tumour. He said he didn't know - it's just something he felt (not literally).

I pointed out that her pancreas function had recently been tested and came up as 'normal'. We discussed further and he told me there are SOME dogs that, for their bodies to function normally, require their pancreas to function higher. He feels she might be one of those dogs. Hence "normal" for her isn't good enough.

We also discussed the possibility of Cushings Disease . I googled this, and a number of the symptoms fit - but it is one of those diseases that have symptoms which might actually be something else.

I have emailed my Vet (sigh .... I hope he doesn't give up on me as being a 'neurotic mother') and have asked if the results of the recent tests he ran would negate Cushings Disease, or if it is worth pursuing on an investigational level.

I guess I will need to wait until next Tuesday, as he only works on that day during the semester.

I don't have a good feeling about this - I'm feeling there is something sinister going on. Whilst I hope I'm wrong, if it is there, I've got to know about it. I want to understand and be able to empathise with my dog, even if it's something I can't fix. Maybe it can be at least managed to give her quality lifestyle, even if not longevity. I need to know what pain she might be feeling, and what to expect and what I can do to help her as best as I am able .... down the track. I'm not morose about it. I'm being a realist. I'm not panicking or going over the top about it. But I'm worried. But I also know I'm doing what I can to get to the bottom of all of this. I'll keep trying.

So - there's the most latest update. I hope there are some that find this of interest and that I'm not just droning on.

Edited January 25, 2006 by Erny

[Clyde]

If you 'feel' something is not quite right, then I bet something is going on :D A Fur Mothers instinct is usually spot on, even if it takes the Vet a few go's to find it.

I'm sorry, I have no intelligent advice for you, you certainly have all bases covered. I guess we will all have to wait with bated breath for your next vet appointment.

Perhaps a hot water bottle, paw massage and hot cocoa will be on the cards each evening for Kal until then

[Tassie]

Don't you hate it when they're not 'right' - and it's so vague.

Just out of interest, and following up on what your chiro said - my old Kelpie/BC desexed bitch had a UTI one time. They ran bloods to rule out kidney disease. I went in with Jess to get the results, and the vet said "She hasn't been vomiting or had diarrhoea?" I said "No, why?" His answer was - "well, I can see from looking at her that she's fine, but her pancreatic enzymes are so [out of whack](I can't remember now whether they were high or low) that if I hadn't seen her, I would be certain she had pancreatitis. But obviously she hasn't."

In other words, that kind of confirms that individual dogs may have normal functioning values that are either at an extreme, or even out of the normal range.

This girl of mine was hypothyroid - maintained on quite a high dose of oroxine for many years. Her only symptom was bilateral hair loss and skin irritation, but we discovered by trial and error that to be completely 'normal', she needed to be at the very high end of the normal range of thyroid function values.

Hope you can get closer to the answers soon.

Barb

[Erny]

Hi Dru. Hi Barb. :D Barb - thanks for the recount of your story. It does confirm what my chiro talked about.

At the suggestion of my chiro, I have fasted Kal. She hasn't eaten since yesterday morning and I plan to give her an early dinner a bit later this afternoon.

I had to train, today and to beat the heat I started at 6.15 am. I left Kal inside with the airconditioner going. Had a friend come around at about 10.30am to let her out for a toilet stop.

Somewhere inbetween time, she's had a vomit. It looks mainly like water (which I assume she has consumed) ... can't see much of any bile. But I'm a bit worried, because the liquid content has a brownish reddish tinge ... not a lot of pigment colour, but I don't know if it's blood. I've soaked it up with absorbent paper and have enclosed it in a plastic bag for the Vet to look at if they need to.

I will see how she goes with dinner. I figure that, if it is blood that I see, it's not a good sign.

You know the part that makes me love her even more (if that's possible) and brings the tears to my eyes? ...... She went to lengths to make sure she vomited on one of the plastic mats I have - it's further down the other end of the hallway. She doesn't like to mess my carpet. Poor considerate darlin'.

[Tassie]

What a good girl, bless her. Sending good vibes your way, Erny and Kal.

Barb

[Erny]

Thank you Barb.

[Erny]

Here's a copy of the email I sent to Russell on 25th January, 2006.

"Thank you, Russell, for your trouble.

Endeavouring not to be obsessed with Kal's condition ... I am finding it difficult not for it to be frequently on my mind, given her constant presence around me.

I don't know if I reported this, but I have noticed, particularly over the last several months or so, the weakening of her leg muscles. This began with a general decline of muscle mass in her rear legs, and followed with a loss of muscle mass in her shoulders. Following the decline in muscle mass, not surprisingly, she has become noticeably more feeble. It is easy to knock her over. She will stumble more often than one would expect to be normal. Yesterday, she was sniffing the ground, went to take a step, but even before her front paw had left the ground, she nearly fell on her face.

Today she ran to the gate to 'greet' a visitor, and as she came to a halt, almost collapsed in her back end, as if she had little control over where her back legs were going (they tend to slip out sideways, in opposition to each other). In fact, now I recollect numerous moments when this has happened and although I could always give an excuse for them, it is not something that used to occur as often and with as much control loss.

Maybe these are signs that you can attribute to bring us closer to finding the cause of Kal's unwellness.

Maybe I'm barking way up the wrong tree, but I'm wondering if the tests you ran, and their results, would negate "Cushings Disease". Maybe these additional 'symptoms' are something else .... maybe they are nothing.

Whatever the case, I know there is something wrong. And I know I have to find out what it is - if only so I can work to keep her as comfortable as possible, with some empathy and understanding, and know what to look out for, on her behalf.

I apologise for disturbing you again and hope you do not find my contact with you an irritant or imposition."

And here's a copy of a further one I sent on 27th January, 2006

"Russell - yet another email from me. At the suggestion of Kal's chiro (rightly or wrongly) I fasted Kal. The fasting began after her breakfast on 25th January, and she had her next meal mid-late afternoon on 26th January. Somewhere between 6.00am and 2.00pm on 26th January, Kal vomited. I wasn't home at the time - due to the heat I left her inside with the airconditioning running.

The vomit comprised mainly of water, it seems (not surprisingly), but the liquid was tinged a reddy-browny colour. I am concerned this might have been blood. There were two vomits evident - one smaller amount and then one somewhat larger amount. I can only presume the larger volume was first, with the small volume second.

Kal is lethargic (but then, aren't we all given the run of hot weather we've had), but is eager for her meals and licks up every last morsel. She is feeble/weak, though - it doesn't take a lot to knock her off her feet.

My concern level has escalated.

I am readying myself as much as possible to come in to see you on Tuesday, assuming you suggest the same. I hope you can fit her in. I wouldn't be able to get there until the afternoon (say, 2.00 pm at the earliest, due to a work commitment). I have thought about taking her to emergency ... but I'm loathe to have yet another new Vet taking the steps and time to become familiar with Kal and her history.

I'm on stand by for your advice and instructions at the moment."

Russell replied on 9th February, 2006, advising along the lines that her clinical condition didn't suggest Cushings Disease and, in relation to muscle mass, this could be related to age. He told me if I'm still concerned, to make an appointment for next Tuesday (ie 14th February).

Now, in between all of this, I've been weighing Kal weekly. First weigh in (on a Monday) - 27.2kg. Fasted after breakfast the following Wednesday until Thursday night, when I gave her dinner. Second weigh in (the following Monday) - 27.7kg. Third weigh in (last Monday) - 27.5kg.

Kal vomited again this morning (losing her breakfast). Although she's held down her dinner. Over the last few days, until today's vomit and following lethargy, I thought she might have been beginning to look a little better and maybe gained a bit more weight. She now looks skinnier again.

I'm thinking I will request the following tests be done (given that no other suggestions from her current Vet have been forthcoming):

Blood test for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency)

ACTH blood test for Cushings Disease/Syndrome

Ultrasound (pancreas)

and, maybe (because I'm getting desperate to get to the bottom of this) a blood test for Hyperthyroidism.

Not sure about the Hyperthyroidism - seems cats get this, but dogs get Hypothryroidism, and Kal's symptoms definately don't include weight gain.

That's her latest update. I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know if I'm alone in this (with her) or not.

Hope I haven't bored everyone - it's got to the stage where I figure I can print this thread out for a running commentary if I end up needing to tell yet another Vet a bit about her story. If you got to this far, thanks for reading.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Erny