Uncontrollable Urge To Pee. Stops On Vomit

[Erny]

great news Erny

Hi Isaviz! Thanks - but I am approaching all this with very quiet and cautious hope. It could all lead to no where further than I am now (except with a lower bank account balance ) but I admit that I am happier for having pushed to investigate further.

Kal's Vet (Guy) ..... even though he is a 'surgeon' and doesn't normally work on the clinical side of things either, seems pretty interested in the info from USA and has agreed to work with me on this.

[Erny]

Wow, Erny. If Kal knew the huge effort you're making and the lengths you're going to to keep her as healthy as possible for as long as possible - she'd love you even more than she does - except that's probably not possible.

You guys who make such efforts for your poorly pupsters are an inspiration to the rest of us. Thank you.

Hi Tassie - I think we must have posted almost around the same time, so I missed this until now.

Thank you for what you wrote here ..... but I'm sure I'd be right in disagreeing. I think you would be an inspiration to yourself if you were to find yourself in similar shoes. In this, I hope you do not.

[tramissa]

I haven't been able to sit and catch up on this thread for a while with the move and all but you and Kal have still been on my thoughts.

What wonderful angels you and Kal have - your gut instinct is the strongest ally you have and you are using it well. Amazing the way things will go - Tim coming out, the vet in the USA, the seizure stopping the surgery (otherwise the above would not have happened more than likely).

Sending lots of love and prayer to both of you Erny.

[Muttaburra]

Erny, I certainly understand you falling in a heap you've kept it together so well for so long.

The news of the wholistic treatments and possibility of further tests is hopeful. And I always chuckle when you mention Kals steadfast concentration on her chicken fillets , I can just picture her!

What a marvellous job you are doing with Kal, she's one special dog.

[Erny]

Amazing the way things will go - Tim coming out, the vet in the USA, the seizure stopping the surgery (otherwise the above would not have happened more than likely).

Tramissa ..... the exact same thoughts have passed my mind too. I'm a believer in certain things being meant to happen when they do.

What wonderful angels you and Kal have - your gut instinct is the strongest ally you have and you are using it well.

I truley hope so. Sometimes I have nagging doubts, but I think these come from my head and not my heart. It's being able to differentiate the two that is sometimes very difficult.

Thanks Tramissa. And Abz .... Yep, one very special dog. There is so much good that would not have occurred in my life when it did, if Kal had not come along. Even acquiring Kal when I did seems to be 'fate' based ..... but that's another story, and the one we have here is long enough.

I'm very appreciative that it's been followed through by you all to here. I do not kid when I say that some of the inspiration Tassie speaks of a few posts ago come from the support Kal and I receive from you lot. Especially those of you with sick dogs of your own to deal with. I don't wish to single anyone out in particular, for risk of insulting others who have been very valuable in their support, but I owe a debt of gratitude to Dogsbesotted, who, with two ill dogs of her own, has supplied me with a wealth of incredibley reliable information and without whom I would not have made contact with the USA Vet. Not to mention Tim_m99, who saw his way clear to actually taking the time to come out and give Kal a Bowen Therapy Session. There are many others who have also given me direction for the right information - all of you have made an impact on us and for this we are truley thankful, whichever way things turns out. :D

PS. After I posted last night, Kal went out to the toilet and on the way back in had another backward sneezing episode. She hasn't done this for about a week - week & a half. I also noticed some difficulty with her breathing through her nose and heard some gurgling there too, again. Oh oh. I am on the look out for nasal discharge (she's a bit pee'd off with me frequently staring up her nose ) and also a further seizure, as this is the pattern/sequence of events that lead to the first one, 1.5 weeks ago. Aside from this, she's still quite perky.

I have an email from Kal's Vet (who has communicated with the USA Vet) but I don't understand some of the information given, and need to query what I identify as some inconsistencies. I will let you know where the suggestions/information points to once I've been able to straighten it out in my own mind after discussion with Guy next week.

Cheers!

Edited May 27, 2006 by Erny

[Erny]

I received the Sulphur Dioxide test strips, ran the test and sent the results in. This is what they've reported:

"The test was not calibrated for roo meat but for lamb and beef, so I cannot be absolutely certain that you have found a high level. There are some amino acids in meat that release sulphur dioxide and so can confuse the test, and I don't know whether roo meat contains higher levels of these.

That said, I would be very suspicious that there is in fact a high level of sulphites in the mince. Sausages can contain 300ppm and are regarded as high, so 200ppm [which is the result of the test I ran on Kal's meat] is certainly a concern.

I would suggest that you consider changing your butcher for a time - find one who is willing to grind your mince from fresh meat that you buy from them un-minced ... and make sure that they understand that you don't want any extra things put in - no "salt", no "meta", no "white powder" (these are all names for sodium metabisulphite that butchers use ... ). See what happens over a period of three or four weeks. Obviously there may be something else wrong with your dog, [yep, he's right, but I wonder if thiamine deficiency has contributed to Kal's poor health]but trying this cannot hurt at all.

And you are right, adding extra Vitamin B doesn't help if there is sulphite there to break it down."

Why can't things ever be simple?!!!

1. I only just purchased 8kg human grade roo mince.
   
2. I had a hard enough time as it was finding someone reasonably local to supply human grade roo mince, so I don't expect it's going to be easy to source out another stockist.
   

What about chicken fillets? I wonder if I take Kal off the roo mince altogether and simply (but expensively ) increase the chicken fillets to make up for it. Is SD added to chicken fillets? I wouldn't have thought so, but I guess I could run another SD test.

:sigh:

ETA: I'm taking Kal back to Werribee Vets for another blood run tomorrow. There's a few tests they're running (as a result of the info from USA) - they have spoken to a local lab who can do them. IF the results of these tests show an increase in certain sex hormones, there's a possibility Kal's condition can be treated (although not simply) with drug therapy (Mitotane).

IF Kal has a brain tumour, the Mitotane MIGHT have an effect on that too, but this would depend on what type of tumour she has (if she has one).

If the blood tests DON'T show a rise in these certain sex hormones, there's nothing much more I can do than I am already doing.

An MRI or CT may be indicated, but these are expensive (especially the MRI!) so we are going to wait for the blood results first and then plan from there.

There is a blood test we can't do out here - only in USA. But the result of that one blood test would only be of benefit academically speaking, and would not impact on what we are now doing. As the USA blood run would cost in the vicinity of $700.00 (including transport costs), I'm not going to do it just for the fun of it. The costs for the blood run we're doing tomorrow are exhorbitent enough! :D

Edited May 31, 2006 by Erny

[Muttaburra]

Good heavens Erny, it's just not simple is it? Who'd have thought you'd have to calibrate the test differently for Roos, I agree it is inconclusive. :D

From what I remember of the SO2 info the amount of milligrams daily makes a difference, below certain levels only has a mild effect, above certain levels more significant. Was there ever a time when she was fed exclusively on the Roo meat? She seemed to improve and put on weight when you added the chicken to the diet?

If the test result is due to added SO2 it could be happening somewhere along the chain that your butcher is unaware of. I agree, it would be unlikely to be in chicken, since it's put there to keep meat red.

There is a blood test we can't do out here - only in USA. But the result of that one blood test would only be of benefit academically speaking, and would not impact on what we are now doing. As the USA blood run would cost in the vicinity of $700.00 (including transport costs), I'm not going to do it just for the fun of it.

If it has no impact on treatment then the cost just isn't justified. Hopefully the other new blood tests will give you something conclusive on which to base treatment.

Hope you have a good week (despite Kal's situation) and get to enjoy some sunshine and good food (for you too!).

[Erny]

Was there ever a time when she was fed exclusively on the Roo meat?

Yes - for approximately the last 18 months, save for the vegies and soaked rolled oats and omega blend oil.

She seemed to improve and put on weight when you added the chicken to the diet?

Yes - that's pretty much been the catalist for her putting on weight. I put that down to the increase in fat content, which the roo meat doesn't have. :D

If the test result is due to added SO2 it could be happening somewhere along the chain that your butcher is unaware of.

I agree ..... except the wholesale butchers that I purchase through tell me they get the kangaroo in whole, and mince it there for me when I order it. On occasions I've forgotten to order ahead, and they've told me "it's frozen, so we can't mince it". They also told me (I asked when I was trying to locate a stockist) that they don't add anything to the meat when they mince it. I thought that was when SD is added .... IE - when it's minced? How else could they add it to a carcus that's in whole pieces. Also, there is no labelling on the package. At all. I wonder if I should keep the plastic it came in, for evidence, should I need it? (They vacuum seal it.)

Hope you have a good week (despite Kal's situation) and get to enjoy some sunshine and good food (for you too!).

Thanks Abz. ;) I have the next couple of days off. I will enjoy spending it with my girl (and re-catching up on the housework .... a little bit, at least ).

Edited May 31, 2006 by Erny

[Rusky]

hey Kal and Erny we are thinking of you and this "maybe" treatment sounds promising.

I hope you get some info from the next lot of tests and all your "special" treatments are giving Kal a happy time.

[Muttaburra]

that they don't add anything to the meat when they mince it. I thought that was when SD is added .... IE - when it's minced? How else could they add it to a carcus that's in whole pieces. Also, there is no labelling on the package. At all. I wonder if I should keep the plastic it came in, for evidence, should I need it? (They vacuum seal it.)

Hmm, with such a short "chain of handling" it's hard to account for the positive SO2 reading, must be to do with calibration, either that or it is picking up SO2 residue from the mincing equipment, containers, or at the first point of origen. I wonder if the health dept or somewhere might be able to do the full test.

Years ago I found a lump almost as big as a golfball in a loaf of bread, it was horrible slimy grey stuff and slightly off too, I rang the health dept and a guy actually came to my place to have a look at it. He thought it was likely to be some grunge fallen off the dough mixer. At least it wasn't part of a dead mouse (which was my concern).

[Staffyluv]

Hi Erny,

Just read your update and perhaps Aber is right and the meat is being contaminated via the equipment and handling...

I know what you mean about the costs of tests and more tests... Not just the financial costs but what it puts our furry friends through having test after test as well...

Just wanted you to know that you and Kal are in my thoughts...

Hope you both have a great week...

Jodie

[Erny]

I wonder if the health dept or somewhere might be able to do the full test.

Good point about the "residue".

Do I ring the health dept direct without saying anything/asking further questions of the butcher? I'd hate to cause these butchers undue duress particularly if there is nothing wrong with the roo mince or if the butcher hasn't done anything with it. (Either accidentally or otherwise.)

Thanks for your thoughts Staffyluv. I'm off to have a quick read of your recent post .... trusting that everything is going well for yours.

[dogbesotted]

A very interesting read>>>>

Thiamine deficiency in dogs due to the feeding of sulphite preserved meat.

Singh M, Thompson M, Sullivan N, Child G.

Veterinary Specialist Center, North Ryde, South Wales.

A 6-year-old dog, a 4-year-old dog and three 7-week-old puppies were diagnosed with thiamine deficiency caused by feeding sulphite treated meat. The 6-year-old dog presented with a history of inappetence, weight loss and vomiting that rapidly progressed to signs of multifocal intracranial disease including mental dullness, paresis, seizures, spontaneous nystagmus and strabismus. Thiamine pyrophosphate effect was elevated at 58% and magnetic resonance imaging revealed bilaterally symmetrical hyperintensity of the caudate nucleus and rostral colliculi. The dog recovered with thiamine supplementation. The 4-year-old dog and three 7-week-old puppies also presented with rapidly progressive multifocal central nervous system signs including ataxia, paresis, increased muscle tone, seizures, nystagmus and exophthalmos. The 4-year-old dog made a rapid recovery with thiamine supplementation. Euthanasia and necropsy of a puppy revealed malacia of multiple brainstem nuclei and oedema of the cerebral cortex. These findings were consistent with thiamine deficiency.

[Erny]

The dog recovered with thiamine supplementation. The 4-year-old dog and three 7-week-old puppies also presented with rapidly progressive multifocal central nervous system signs including ataxia, paresis, increased muscle tone, seizures, nystagmus and exophthalmos. The 4-year-old dog made a rapid recovery with thiamine supplementation. Euthanasia and necropsy of a puppy revealed malacia of multiple brainstem nuclei and oedema of the cerebral cortex. These findings were consistent with thiamine deficiency.

I think I read that too, DBS. I presume the diet was changed as well.

"Increased" muscle tone? Or should that be "decreased" muscle tone?

The problem with these symptoms is that they can be attributed to other causes unrelated to thiamine deficiency ..... just to make it terribly confusing and dang hard and expensive to work out. If only there was a simple blood test for thiamine deficiency. My Vet at Werribee says there isn't one for animals, but surely ........ ? Perhaps I should try to email Dr. Singh for an answer there. (I did go to, but couldn't find a "contact" addy. Will look again. ) There's got to be something more simple, rather than ditching all Kal's food in the freezer and changing her diet around again. :D

[Loraine]

IF Kal has a brain tumour, the Mitotane MIGHT have an effect on that too, but this would depend on what type of tumour she has (if she has one).

If the blood tests DON'T show a rise in these certain sex hormones, there's nothing much more I can do than I am already doing.

An MRI or CT may be indicated, but these are expensive (especially the MRI!) so we are going to wait for the blood results first and then plan from there.

There is a blood test we can't do out here - only in USA. But the result of that one blood test would only be of benefit academically speaking, and would not impact on what we are now doing. As the USA blood run would cost in the vicinity of $700.00 (including transport costs), I'm not going to do it just for the fun of it. The costs for the blood run we're doing tomorrow are exhorbitent enough! :D

Erny if you need any loading instructions for Mitotane [Lysodren] (and what to look for) I have a word doc that I can email to you. Just send me a message. Good luck!

[dogbesotted]

Erny,

I thought the same about the increased v decreased muscle tone...but it is a copy from the article...shrug so your guess is as good as mine in that respect.

also the caninecushings autoimmunecare group at yahoo has some excellent information re lysodren etc.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineCushings-AutoimmuneCare/

How is kal today?

[Muttaburra]

I still think that the possibility of Atypical Cushings due to enlarged Adrenal Gland is the one that makes most sense. With any Pituatry involvement to be ascertained.

If SO2 food contamination is involved then it is a side issue, the significance depending on the level of contamination (if any).

Other than the weight gain with the chicken added, can you remember if there was an overall improvement in other ways? She was having some Vit B supplemention by then as I remember it.

If she is gaining weight and is reaching her ideal weight, perhaps it is possible to add a bit more chicken and cut out a good bit more of the Roo.

She seemed to improve on the pre-op meds, and then there was some seizures, is there any information that might suggest these two are associated. If so, what would the vet think of reducing those meds by say, about half?

Latest Newsletter from QLD health department reports that tests are showing significant number breaches of the amount of SO2 in meat (2006), article in Off Topic.

I guess it's a matter of wait and see what the USA connection can come up with, fingers crossed for something tangible.

PS, not sure how the Vic health dept works, but I think it could be tested without dobbing in the butcher.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Abergavenny

[Erny]

Kal had another GM seizure late this morning. Not as violent as the first, but seemed to last longer. Resperation rate part way through was EXTREMELY alarming.

Waiting for results of stimulation blood tests she had done last Thursday. Vet not in today. Expecting call tomorrow with results.

I was going to wait until then to post the above, but the thread is turning out to be a handy record of what has happened and when.

Other than the seizure, Kal is looking well, and has been a bit better on her 'up' days and not as bad on her 'down' days. Weigh-in (last Thursday) = 29.2kg. That's 0.8kg off her goal weight. (I don't want her too heavy, given that she is intolerant to exercise.)

She's outside (her choice) on her bean bag, resting (under her blanket, of course ).

I know she will be in your thoughts. I'll post as soon as I get the blood results via the Vet.

Edited spelling error. Not a biggie, but it annoyed me.

Edited June 5, 2006 by Erny

[zayda_asher]

good luck Ern....

Dan

[Erny]

Thanks Dan. We're both (Kal and I) doing what we can.

She's come inside and is resting on her mat close by me. She just did a big stretch and fart. That's a pretty normal sign, me thinks.

Hangin' in there for the blood test results.