Steve K9Pro Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 K: K9, that's an interesting thought on this technique. I've only ever watched it on the DVD and they did mentioned that it was elevating the drive response... K9: Might be a play on words as turning on the nerves of the dog will elevate the drive response, but the drive itself hasnt gone any higher... It was common (& still can be), for the decoy to hold a leash to a prong collar on a dog on a tie out. He would give multiple corrections that elevate defence drive response... Its thought that the frustration of not being able to avoid corrections elevates drive. I see the dogs nerves turned on.... L: I may be way off here but isn't the point of corrections to reduce the particular action? K9: yes but when the dog is getting continuous stimulation, from the decoy, & getting multiple corrections the dog often will experiment (or shut down) & bite harder to stop the corrections... L: If you are doing it with the aim of elevating the drive, what happens when you really have to use a correction? Wouldn't it have to be ten times higher in force? K9: were talking about multiple corrections in bitework, vs single high level (drive extinguishing) correction. L: I would imaging training in drive should limit the amount of corrections ever needed to be used but I am a bit confused. If you are trying to get a dog to like corrections (and in turn use them a lot), wouldn't it be raising its threshold for pain rather than elevating drive? K9: For anyone that has ever seen my drive model, this type of training doesnt fit my theory. When I want to elevate drive, I do it with more stimulation, increase the intensity of the trigger.... L: In a human perspective, if someone kept giving me a correction (even just saying no), I would probably freeze and give up because in my mind I wouldn't be doing anything right so whats the point of trying. K9: yes this is learned helplessness, but if the corrections then didnt stop you might loose your temper & attack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 But put your hand in a box that contains $1000.00 that you can have if you reach it (this being the equivalent of the dog's drive goal), and I'd expect you'd cope better with receiving the elastic band flick. On a discussion level only as well isnt the $1000 that elevates your drive? not the flick of the band..... Yes youd put up with the flick for a $1000 but Id imagine it would be better if there was no flick all together there, yes? I'm sure I'm wrong, Myszka .... just musing on the thought. I see the $1000.00. My inate 'money drive' ( ) is activated. I could get to the money and pick it up, maybe even one note at a time. But I've learnt I can't avoid the elastic band flick and I'm more determined to get my hand in the box much faster and maker a stronger grab for the money, 'cause I want to make sure I achieve my goal to the fullest possible extent. ????????? But K9's explanation makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Julie Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I like this analogy. I'm not really contributing much to the drive discussion here, but I was thinking, What if it were a rat trap that was going to get you rather than an elastic band? I'd certainly be thinking twice about it then! And getting tongs out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 What if it were a rat trap that was going to get you rather than an elastic band? I'd certainly be thinking twice about it then! And getting tongs out! Like every one is different so are dogs and what might be an aversive to one is not to another. A rat trap is of no consequence to me if it meant gaining $1,000 but put 240 volts of electricity as a booby trap and I might think twice about it. I see this all the time when working/training dogs on stock - to some dogs the work (being in drive) is everything and it takes a hell of a lot to condition a stop. Whilst others simple body pressure is enough. Every dog is different and therefore it is important to read the dog. Steve, as for "turning on the nerves of a dog through multiple corrections" would this be the case for a solid nerved type dog and would you bother trying the method on one. Kelpie-i, I know the video and method your talking about and have trained a dog to heel with this method as you know. The method is more like correction/ reward/corection/reward/correction/ reward in quick succession (reward being food) hard to describe in writing. It does help a dog learn to accept correction. What about methods used to keep dogs in drive when they lose prey focus, what do people do? Now back to the kelpie cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Herding guy: What about methods used to keep dogs in drive when they lose prey focus, what do people do? Um, is this a trick question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Steve, as for "turning on the nerves of a dog through multiple corrections" would this be the case for a solid nerved type dog and would you bother trying the method on one. Kelpie-i, I know the video and method your talking about and have trained a dog to heel with this method as you know. The method is more like correction/ reward/corection/reward/correction/ reward in quick succession (reward being food) hard to describe in writing. It does help a dog learn to accept correction. Herding Guy, yes that's the video. I have spoken about this technique with other behaviourists and they mentioned that this method should only be used on hard nerved dogs. And I do believe that it can help them cope better with corrections, whether it's tapping into drive or nerves. What about methods used to keep dogs in drive when they lose prey focus, what do people do? Aaaah, I know this.....mimic prey noises, become interesting, show interest in the item/ball/toy etc yourself - be greater than the sum of all parts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Here's a snippet of an interesting article in the recent APDT newsletter written by Daniel Estep, Ph.D. and Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. (whoever they are!!) www.animalbehaviorassociates.com. "There is no scientific evidence that dogs have traits like prey drives, pack drives or defensive drives. The studies of dog temperament that have been done have not identified such simple and all-inclusive traits. The definition of such traits have been vague and imprecise, somthing that is not tolerated in science." And "For example, what does it mean to say that a dog has a high prey drive? Perhaps is is very interested in chasing rabbits or fetching balls. does this also meant tha he will kill and eat cats if he can catch them? What about infant children? for the trait of prey drive to have any scientific meaning, it would need to be behaviourally defined in a very precise way." And last but not least... "The use of drive traits to explain behaviour often falls short and explains nothing. If we say that dogs that chase rabbits have a high prey drive, then any dog that has a high prey drive wil chase rabbits. This is circular reasoning and explains nothing. It simply is a description of what some dogs do. We would be better of simply describing the behaviour and not talking about drives at all" So here you have it everyone.....we've all got it wrong according to these schmucks. The next time your dog chases a cat, it's not because of his ancient instinctual urge for hunt but purely just a behaviour that your dog has decided to partake in, because the cat is there and it is something to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Um, is this a trick question? No, I'm not that smart I'd thought it might generate sum interesting reading though. I'd like to hear of some methods people have used. I always put my energy towards the prey item / lure / stock ignoring the dog and therfore taking all pressure off dog. The dog should always feel that I'm allowing him to join into my game with my prey. I also use a woooshing noise & "geddy geddy geddy" sounds weird but it works. And I do believe that it can help them cope better with corrections It did for the dog I used it on but I wouldn't describe him as strong nerved. be greater than the sum of all parts! I like that. (where are those purle tights?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 "There is no scientific evidence that dogs have traits like prey drives, pack drives or defensive drives... Does this go for sex drive too? It is all theory though, open for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 (where are those purle tights?) Weren't you wearing your yellow ones today?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 It is all theory though, open for debate. Probably a paper they needed to write for their Master's degrees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Weren't you wearing your yellow ones today?? You noticed! Sorry OT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I got my DVDs from Leerburg last night. Just wanted to let you know that they did work in the player. They are DVD-Rs. As for the DVDs I got, I thought they would great to watch to support what I have already read. Most of the information just reiterated what is said on here regarding prey drive. Dogs trained in prey drive are amazing though and you can tell they live for the ball when in drive. I knew this by looking at pics on K9 Forces website but it was good to see on DVD. I also got the one about raising a working puppy. Most of it sounds like common sense (after you watch it) ie. neutralising your dog to people and other dogs but I was glad I saw that too. Have a great day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 E: But I've learnt I can't avoid the elastic band flick and I'm more determined to get my hand in the box much faster and maker a stronger grab for the money, K9: thats why they use multiple corrections, its not over coming one on / off aversive its continuous... HG: Steve, as for "turning on the nerves of a dog through multiple corrections" would this be the case for a solid nerved type dog and would you bother trying the method on one. K9: as this is used generally on Protection dogs, the nerves "should be" solid always, but if they are not the dog will shut down... I wouldnt use this method, it creates a lot of stress, whilst I believe that you may see a better bite quicker in training, the fallout in real work isnt worth it... I really love seeing a clear headed dog working, they are so much more effective. HG: What about methods used to keep dogs in drive when they lose prey focus, what do people do? K9: re stimulate the dog with the prey item... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) ....... a snippet of an interesting article in the recent APDT newsletter written by Daniel Estep, Ph.D. and Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. "For example, what does it mean to say that a dog has a high prey drive? Perhaps is is very interested in chasing rabbits or fetching balls. does this also meant tha he will kill and eat cats if he can catch them? What about infant children? for the trait of prey drive to have any scientific meaning, it would need to be behaviourally defined in a very precise way." :D I cocked more than one eye brow at that one too, when I received the newsletter, Kelpie-i. Reading between the lines, I got the underlying impression that they were saying we shouldn't talk about drives anymore because the peoples don't understand them ..... I say "learn". "There is no scientific evidence that dogs have traits like prey drives, pack drives or defensive drives. The studies of dog temperament that have been done have not identified such simple and all-inclusive traits. The definition of such traits have been vague and imprecise, something that is not tolerated in science." I wonder if they passed this one by Scott and Fuller .... or even read their books. Edited January 18, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Lablover once put up a link about drive training, not sure which thread it was on...and whilst it didn't go into technique it gave you a run down on when, what etc. The write up was a little technical and unless you are familiar with terms such as thresholds, modes etc, it would right over your head. If interested here is the link: http://www.dogstuff.info/modal_theory_part1_macdonald.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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