Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 As some people are aware, Missey and I are currently undergoing a leadership training program. Part of this program involves walking around my courtyard with a lead and teaching heel and sit. The behavioural therapist has advised me that when Missey yawns and licks her mouth, that she is stressed. She is responding well in these training sessions and is following my commands but my problem is that the dog seems to stressing out quite quickly during these training sessions, even as I am attaching her lead. Am I not being clear enough with her and is she not sure what to do or is she just confused she is learning some new commands for things she already knew (ie I used to use words like "this way"or "ready?" when on the lead)? I also wonder if she is just having a negative reaction to the courtyard and is worried I might lock her out again, as she was also yawning when I was sweeping the courtyard. Is there something I can do to calm her down? I'm telling her good girl, but I'm trying not to give her too many treats as she was becoming too expectant of them and eating far too many. Do they still yawn when they are tired, I think she has two sorts, one is a wider mouth and quiet, one is this smaller one with a noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Could you describe the training you are doing? It is possible that if you are putting a bit too much pressure on or expecting to much too soon that she is starting to make a aversive association with your training and therefore the predictors, like the lead and courtyard. It's possible, and there are many other possibilities but that's the first that comes to mind without more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 She has had a lot of changes in general, changes to sleeping arrangements, play time, no walks, not allowed throughout the house, changes to feeding, no pats. Various discussions have led me to believe that the programs a bit harsh and I have started to back down a little and haven't been quite so strict and it has made her much happier. I think it's all been a little too much for her and I might let up on the lead training for a day or two while she is settling down. With the actual lead training itself, we're just walking around and stopping and sitting, it's nothing too taxing. I might test her out with her old harness and lead out the front and see if she's happy to walk around. It a very difficult decision, I want to help my dog and don't know if this is making things worse or if would be bad to ditch the program mid way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Ummm, is this a Dogtech or a Dog Whisperer behaviourist? No fun stuff with your dog? Or have I misread or am I assuming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 That's it alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) Work in drive, IMO, will promote leadership and increase your dog's desire to work. I see you're in Sydney - have you tried to get a consult with Steve (K9 Force)? I know he's busy though ... Edited January 11, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I had some advice from Steve when I first started asking about her aggression with other dogs, but since I don't drive I was unable to get the dog that far out with public transport. I have since had contact with him and he has agreed to come to me if necessary (at an increased cost), and now my boyfriend has seen how unhappy the dog has become, he has offered to take me out there. So this is the thing, do I continue with dogtech and have the second consultation or just ditch them and go to Steve? I was reluctant to write dog tech off, but I am becoming more unhappy with the program each day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 It sounds to me like all the changes are definately causing your dog some anxiety. I don't know the situation that prompted you to seek out degtech and apply these measures, but in most cases I would say they are extreme. For most pets, you can live a leadership lifstyle without being a nazi, although there are some temperaments and issues that require much more vigilance than others. Depending on the severity of your dog's issues and the urgency to remedy then, i would suggest getting a second opinion, especially if you are unhappy or uncertain about the results you are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I have no personal problem with my dog and find her generally obedient, but she is becoming increasingly aggressive with other dogs, not every time, but I'm sick of the skinned knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 So this is the thing, do I continue with dogtech and have the second consultation or just ditch them and go to Steve?I was reluctant to write dog tech off, but I am becoming more unhappy with the program each day. I admit, it's frustrating as a trainer/behaviourist when people don't apply a suggested method for an appropriate block of time. Sometimes it is this that prevents the success of the methodology. But, given the signs your dog is showing, perhaps: Inform Dogtech your not achieving the desired results. Inform them of the anxiety their method appears to be having. Listen to what they say and what they can offer. Go see Steve for a second opinion. Chose from there the method that best suits your dog and that which you're more comfortable with. BTW - do you have to pay more money for the second consultation with Dogtech? If so, try talking to them on the phone beforehand, and maybe getting your 2nd opinion before the second consult with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 Thanks for the advice Erny, and yes, I do still have to pay for the second one. I was thinking of asking the therapist about the stress, but I had an additional problem of Missey howling due to being left outside, and the advice on that was "she'll get used to it" (unfortunately my neighbours didn't and now she's back inside til I find a remedy). I'm not sure how flexible they are on their methods, particularly as everyone always seems to get the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I know of a 'particular trainer' who was advising my old puppy pre school clients that when they got their new pup they should immediately place puppy outside and ignore him/her for one week to make the dog calm. (read: depressed, dispirited and alone ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missey's Mum Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 Leaving Missey outside for 10-11 hours straight without any warning was very upsetting for her. I'm trying to buy a pen so she can still walk in but not have access to the lounge etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Come back and let us know what choice you made ... and how it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) I have no personal problem with my dog and find her generally obedient, but she is becoming increasingly aggressive with other dogs, not every time, but I'm sick of the skinned knees. Teaching your dog to work in drive can help with this. You can then use the drive to work in the proximity of other dogs, using desensitisation methods which increasingly lower your dog's reaction threshold. Yes - you need leadership, but leadership doesn't have to, IMO mean "nazi style" (as Haven put it ) interactions. Edited January 13, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Erny, I guessed that too before I continued to read on. Certainly the "Dogtech" style of training...you can't miss it. MM, I would go with Erny's suggestion in training in drive or "motivational" style training for the layman. This heightens the dog's enthusiasm, making training alot more fun and also teaches the dog quicker. Haven's comments about implementing leadership without being a nazi is spot on. The severity of the program is obviously causing your dog to stress. IMO, consult with Steve from K9 and see what he suggests. I too would be interested in knowing what the dogtech behaviourist tells you about the stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 My kelpie is dog aggressive too. I only worry about using prey drive in training because she is reactive, and I worry that when she is excited for the prey item, she will be more reactive and aggressive towards other dogs. I have found that an exciting atmosphere such as when we did agility made her worse. At the moment I use food as I can focus her with this and while it keeps her attention as she is very food motivated, it keeps her calmer too. Is this likely to be a problem with working in drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Kavik, some dogs are certainly very highly strung and in some cases, drive training can make them a little uncontrollable, at first!. The best thing would be to teach them an "off" or "enough" command and keep the sessions somewhat lower key and short. Drive training can also consist of a fetch game if that what you dog likes. It dosn't necessarily need to be a game of tug or chase. Some people have the complete opposite problem to you, where the dogs are not overly interested in toys etc but go absolutely nuts over food, so much so that the dog cannot concentrate on anything else.....hold on......that sounds like me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 My old dog is a little like that LOL! She is VERY food motivated and I used that to train her (well, as well as I could when I was 13!). I remember trying to teach her to go through the tunnel and through weave poles (admittently when she was older - about 10 years old ) and she wanted the food so much she jumped on top of the tunnel instead of going through and jumped all the weave guides! She just couldn't think straight with the food sometimes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 sounds like my GSD whenever food is around...nothing else matters! He's 11yo now and I thougt that by this age he would start to settle...boy was I wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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