Dog-dominant Pup

[rosebud]

Hi everyone (and sorry about the long post!)

I'm quite new here because I'm one of 'those types' who are a bit shy in posting and prefer to sit back and read what other people say But after attending tonight's first ever puppy preschool class I know when I'm out of my league and need advice that doesn't come out of a book (my first reference point until now). Basically, I've noticed some things about my pup that I want to stop. (Stop, as in STOP RIGHT THERE YOU LITTLE SQUEAKER OR MUMMY IS GOING TO PUT A WATER PISTOL TO YOUR HEAD AND THEN YOU ARE GOING TO GET IT!!!!! ) :p :shakehead:

*coughs* ;) So, anyway, I was hoping that I could have some help (apart from intense therapy sessions) in the form of advice, pointing out what I'm doing wrong and what I can do better.

Here is the background:

I have a x-breed mutt that came from my friend; to cut a long story short it was an accidental breeding and she doesn't know what the father is. The mother however is a pure bred shar-pei. My pup has been with me and my family ever since he was 7 weeks, and I purposely picked him because he was quite laid back and submissive in his litter. He is now 16 weeks old.

I'm on my uni hols and only work a few hours a week; I've been able to spend a LOT of time with him, training, playing, socialising (we've been to schools, shopping malls, local bus depot, neighbour's dogs and so on) He sleeps on my bed, is housetrained, and has the basic commands down pat (ie sit and look at food until 'OK', 'leave it' etc) He isn't mouthy either, not even with my two young sisters, even though he is starting to teethe.

Suffice to say, before tonight we all thought he was quite the little angel ;)

ANYWAY, the first puppy preschool session...

You know how in every obedience class there is that one dog that acts like a real prat; the dog who mucks up and all around behaves like an ass apart from the braying?

Well, that was my 'angel' tonight.

He wouldn't settle, even when other ones were being quiet and sitting, he wouldn't even play with the kong that trainer handed out to everyone - I ended up holding his squirmy body on my lap almost the entire session - because all he wanted to do was play. When he did get some play time, it was mostly spent on the other dogs' backs, humping his little heart out :D (Let's cut another long story short and say that I got quite a few evil eyes and some whispered comments from the mothers of the SWFs in our class)

I didn't think too much of it because I've been told humping is normal esp in dominant dogs rah rah rah, but when he was playing with my aunt's two dogs later this very same night, he tried to do the same thing to them too - even though one is a 9 month old rotty female who didn't take it very well.

She snapped at him - just telling him off - and my mouthy little bugger snapped back at her - jumping up in her face and snapping his jaws. When he played too rough with the other dog (in between the times he was constantly humping them both) this rotty tried to intervene by biting his tail gently, he would turn on her and get in her face, snapping and yipping and running after her when she moved away

This rotty is a real sweetheart and didn't discipline my pup other than that - no dominant displays whatsoever, and she just looked the other way when he jumped at her.

My aunt then commented that my pup was EXTREMELY dominant, and quizzed me about how I was training him etc etc .. the thing is, I don't know why he's like that around dogs - I've made sure that he knows he's the lowest ranked in the family, he is quite obedient to us (except when other dogs are around) and he was submissive when we got him.

Could anyone please tell me what I'm doing wrong, how to do it right, and how to stop his behaviour? I want him to stop his excessive humping (I'm not talking one hump or two, he's acting like the only bull elephant in a herd of extremely attractive cows - in the middle of a desert island). Oh, and I also don't want a dominant pup. Is it possible to modify his behaviour? I've been as specific as I can be (LOL sorry about the blathering on and on) but sorry if I've left out some details.

Thanks heaps in advance

Peace out

[cassie]

Wow what a little trooper hey! We'd love to see a pic when you can

But back to the issue at hand. Has he been socialised with many older dogs? You said this rotty was only 9 months old, and a female, so I'm thinking if maybe he met some older male dogs (by older i mean over 18 months, so they are well and truly 'adults') they may just put him in his place.

Obviously you don't want him to have any bad experiences at such a tender age, as this can leave an impression on him for life. But if you happen to know of any older male dogs that you deem trustworthy (perhaps a friend or neighbour has one?) I think this could be a good start.

[haven]

Wriggling and wanting to play while at puppy school? How dare he

Let the SWF owners whisper, clearly they lack the brains to realise that he is a puppy, of course he is going to act this way sometimes! Don't you worry, I'm damn sure their dogs do exactly the same thing at times :D

As for the dominance, you should start on a leadership lifestyle right away if you have not already. One thing I would suggest at this point in time is not to let your pup sleep on your bed. The NILIF (nothing in life is free) program is good and if you do a search of the forum, you will find the link with no problems.

In terms of humping, I wouldn't let your pup do it to other dogs, if he does I'd lift him off by the scruff (gently and firmly but not in an angry way) and give him a time out, IE he doesn't get to play with any other dogs for a few minutes. If he persists, time out him in an area away that has NOTHING for your pup to play with for a good amount of time and only let him out when he is quiet.

In terms of temperament, you get what you get, whether he is going to be a dominant pup or a submissive one is largely decided by genetics, assuming adequate socialisation occurs. You can't change the relationships he forms with other dogs, as he takes his cue from their behaviour, you're not in the equation. You may not want him to be dominant over another dog, but that dog may happily offer submission, which is completely beyond your control.

[rosebud]

LOL Hey Cass (gorgeous bernese in your avatar btw)

We haven't actually got a proper digital camera yet - even in this day and age - even being a 'young-un' :D (am blushing a lot tonight.. thought I was all blushed out and here comes a new one ) I WILL try to borrow one from a friend though, and see what I can do.

Has he been socialised with many older dogs?

Nope, he hasn't been socialised with older dogs; we've recently moved from Adelaide to Melb, so I don't know a lot of people with adult dogs (Read: I don't know ANYONE with a trustworthy adult dog - but I'm almost desperate enough to troll the parks asking around, lol.)

I didn't want to bring him around dogs I didn't know because he hasn't had his 3rd vacc yet.

And my neighbours' dogs can't help in this case which is a shame.. one is a 13 yo maltese, the other is a very very shy greyhound x.

[rosebud]

Hi Haven

Wriggling and wanting to play while at puppy school? How dare he 

You're right.. I know it was a normal exuberant 'i want to play play play PLAY NOW!' puppy thing, but because I've spent such so much time training him and having him generally responsive I got waaay too sensitive when he was the only one acting up in his class. Looking back.. maybe I got a bit too paranoid

Don't you worry, I'm damn sure their dogs do exactly the same thing at times

LOL and I did get a bit fed up towards the end - you can only be extremely embarrassed for so long - then you get irritated at people.

One of the SWFs started acting up - barking like crazy, howling, digging ruts into the concrete floor trying to get to another SWF - so when it started doing that to my pup, I gasped and made a big show like I was concerned for his life - complete with scooping him up hastily in my arms, retreating quickly and looking like I was seriously concerned that my puppy was going to get eaten alive by her SWF(although he outweighed this SWF by 20 kilos or more (okay.. more like only 6 kilos) and could probably splat it if he sat on it).

Thanks for the NIFIL tip - so much for book learning - I seriously haven't heard of that term before.

[AgilityGirl]

NILIF is definitly a good programme to use in order to manage behavioural problems

[haven]

when it started doing that to my pup, I gasped and made a big show like I was concerned for his life - complete with scooping him up hastily in my arms, retreating quickly and looking like I was seriously concerned that my puppy was going to get eaten alive by her SWF(although he outweighed this SWF by 20 kilos or more (okay.. more like only 6 kilos) and could probably splat it if he sat on it).

While I can certainly see how amusing this must have been, I really have to stress that you should try never to do this in the future with your pup.

Perhaps worth it once, just to see the look on the SWF owners face, but in reactiong like that you send a message to your pup that you are afraid when another dog acts in this manner and communicate clearly to him that he too should be afraid. On a regular basis, especially during the critical period, it is almost sure to create lifelong issues for your dog.

You're right.. I know it was a normal exuberant 'i want to play play play PLAY NOW!' puppy thing, but because I've spent such so much time training him and having him generally responsive I got waaay too sensitive when he was the only one acting up in his class. Looking back.. maybe I got a bit too paranoid 

Don't worry too much, our animals always manage to embarrass us at some stage, no matter how old they are. That's what they are for

[helen]

Have a look at this link, it has plenty of information including how to teach a dog to settle - http://www.k9events.com/pups.htm

Your pup was also rather young to leave the litter and may have missed out on some valuable 'learning' from mum and the rest of the litter at that age. Talk to the instructor about your concerns after the class, she has seen him in after all and may be able to help.

[rosebud]

Thanks all for the replies - helped me take a good long look at what I was doing -

Haven, I feel really guilty and petty for using my dog to get my point across... it was small minded of me and I promise that no matter how irritated I am in the future I will just let my fists do the talking instead. (Joke, joke..)

No, I truly feel BAD :D I didn't even think about the consequences it might have on Kai when I did it, I was so intent on some form of revenge..

I'll be using the links you gave me to teach him to settle Helen - and as for the NILIF method that was suggested, we're already doing that - just didn't know it was called NILIF - it was more 'If You Make Me Happy I Will Make You Happy' in our household.

The sitting/dropping before food, going on bed, going outside to potty, going outside for a walk is fine - I need to finetune though with the sit in the car and wait.

Oh, and the playing inside the house.

Sometimes my sisters and I will run around inside the house with him, throw balls etc - didn't realise the side effects of this was that he didn't learn self-control.

Oh, and Haven, what do I do if my dog starts to hump other dogs in puppy preschool? I can't put him in any time out areas - should I just hold him in my lap?

[poodlefan]

Lets get one thing straight - any decent puppy preschool makes very that all pups present enjoy themselves, regardless of what dogs and owners are present. Small or timid pups are not playthings for larger or bolder pups - and the person running the show should be controlling that. Place yourself in the shoes of that SWF owner and you may find some empathy for how they felt.

Your dog sounds like it may well be dominant towards other dogs - the fact that you have trained him to be submissive to humans hasn't and probably wont affect that. He reacted adversely to being told that his humping was unacceptable to his 'victims'. You need to develop methods to control that behaviour by preventing it in the first place.

What you need to do is socialise your dog with a wide range of dogs and teach him appropriate behaviour. Despite anything you may have been told, learning socialisation skills needs to continue for months for a pup and definitely right through adolesence as any concessions given to pups by older dogs will then cease. Puppy preschool is just the beginning.

I'd suggest you join a quality dog training club in your area (Melbourne DOLers can help with suggestions) and do more training. That will provide opportunities for you and your dog to interact with other trained dogs - using dogs and people you don't know is fraught with risk.

Humping other dogs is unacceptable - if other dogs are having trouble convincing him of that then the lesson needs to be reinforced by you. If he goes to hump - you need to stop it. You need to be able to control him to the extent that you can call him off if he tries it - he needs to learn "play nice or playtime is over".

[rosebud]

Hi PF

Lets get one thing straight - any decent puppy preschool makes very that all pups present enjoy themselves, regardless of what dogs and owners are present.

Yup, rules were all explained.. main reason why I was so embarrassed.. he was so disruptive that I felt like just taking him out of there - just kept squirming and trying to get to the other pups and distracting them. I got offended at the people who were shooting me looks and talking behind their hands because I was going my best - had gone off into a corner, was holding him on my lap and praising him when he was quiet - and he did settle down towards the middle of the lesson.

It was an irrational response on my part, but I was so incredibly frustrated that I lost it. I'm not the type to be nasty, I don't believe that the puppy preschool should revolve around my dog either. This is why I'm here - I know that I've missed out on doing something with him - I didn't know why he behaved that way. He was introduced to my neighbour's dogs when younger, did fine, and then all of the sudden he goes to puppy preschool and I see him act so so badly. I was appalled at myself for not realising it could happen, or done things with him to stop that behaviour.

I feel so terrible :D Only ever had one dog before, he came from the pound and was the sweetest, most loving sook in the world. The groundwork or so to speak had already been done with him, I got this pup wanting to do the right thing to find that I've done the opposite.

Humping other dogs is unacceptable - if other dogs are having trouble convincing him of that then the lesson needs to be reinforced by you. If he goes to hump - you need to stop it.

Absolutely agree 100% - but I didn't know how to do it - ie how to stop it. I like Haven's method and will try it - will a water pistol also work? He hates water.

[poodlefan]

If you and your dog were made to feel out of place Rosebud then I'd say that the preschool teacher failed - explaining your dog's behaviour and character to the other participants should have been the teacher's responsiblity. Through understanding comes tolerance of dogs who are different to your own. I've seen someone with a very outgoing, boistrous pup be told it was "aggressive" - and this dog doesn't have an agro bone it his body.

You are in the right place Rosebud. The main thing to remember is that your dog's dominance is not your "fault" - he is what he is. Your responsiblity is to learn to control it. You shouldn't feel embarassed - all the behind the hands chatter is generally from ignorant people who know absolutely nothing about dogs anyway.

I know its not always fun having a dog with "challenging behaviour" but you'll learn a lot in learning to manage it. You'll get plenty of understanding from experienced dog people, many of whom have had very similar experiences to yours. :D

If all else fails - consult an experienced canine behaviouralist. It will cost you but one on one time from someone who really knows what they are dealing with is worth every penny.

Edited January 11, 2006 by poodlefan

[Alison1474]

Good on you for recognising that there is a problem and finding ways to solve it.

:D

You'll do fine !!!!!

[rosebud]

The trainer is only a few years older than me; I think that my dog must have been one of the more hypo/boisterous ones she has come across - she dismissed it as merely 'puppy behaviour'. It was the first time she had met him so I think she was just sussing him out.

His humping hadn't really come out then - he did definitely try it but I pulled him off. The problem that he was always wanting to play nonstop.

It was only when he was with my aunt's dogs that I let him free play - and he was constantly humping the two of them - I failed in that regard to pull him off, or even to correct him properly. I halfheartedly scolded him once or twice because I was waiting for the rotty to tell him off.

Now I know differently.. Little Engelbert Humperdick doesn't know boundaries, plays too aggressively for my liking and won't even be able to get off the ground if he even TRIES to get jiggy with his next play mate. Mwahhahaha.

And I'm really REALLY dreading next week's preschool. I'm going to feed him less that day and really tire him out before going - forewarned is forearmed with a Kong, some treats and a better attitude on my part to stop him.

I've heard really good things about ADT here in Melbourne, I might give them a call. Kai gets his last shots soon - I'll be taking him out then. He definitely needs more socialisation with other dogs.

Thanks so much for the help and support. Am feeling the love :D

[peibe]

Sounds to me like a typical Shar Pei puppy on his first night of puppy preschool.

continue doing all the right things that the others above have mentioned

I would also recomend making him tired before preschool with a walk and a play. I also do not feed my puppy's dinner before school as it makes them more focused on the treats. Worked for me

Pity you are not in Newcastle I have a large male Shar Pei at home that loves to put dominant little puppies in their place.

He is no different to his Shar Pei heritage, just work with him and he will be fine

[poodlefan]

Ah, yes the joys of a dominant dog.

Young Darcy went through a "you're not the boss of me" period with dogs in his bulletproof teens... and displayed it by seeking opportunities to beat up small geriatric female dogs if he got the chance... charming....but not stupid. He deferred to larger dogs and males.

Thank God we got past that - if you want to know about being shunned, try owning a "granny basher".

Edited January 11, 2006 by poodlefan

[rosebud]

Peibe

Sounds to me like a typical Shar Pei puppy on his first night of puppy preschool.

LOL THANK GOD HE'S NORMAL!! The thought 'Oh Lordy, I think he has issues' did bounce around once, twice.. many times.. in my mind -

He is my first puppy, and compared to other puppies in the class he was a real monster. I know being boisterous and wanting to play is normal, but I seriously think the excessive humping is abnormal.

Pity you are not in Newcastle I have a large male Shar Pei at home that loves to put dominant little puppies in their place.

Now if that isn't an incentive to move up I don't know what is!!!! Thank you for your very kind offer. I can't wait for the moment when he realises that he's not 'top dog' anymore - I think the look on his face will be priceless - a real photo moment

[rosebud]

Oh, Poodlefan, you gave me the best laugh of the day:

Thank God we got past that - if you want to know about being shunned, try owning a "granny basher".

:D :p

Well Im in the throes (sp) of my own adolescence, so our hormonal imbalances should even out.

[Meriment]

Just read this thread from start to finish.

Don't have anything to add, except to you for asking for help and being so committed to sorting out his "little issues"

Good luck with everything and enjoy your puppy :D

[Pippi]

You won't do any better than take the great advise that Poodlefan has offered in both his/her posts. BTW Poodlefan I just love your avatar - I have a good laugh every time I see it, please don't change it for a while...