Punishment

[haven]

Sorry but I do not agree that saying the word "No" is punishment.  Hitting a dog is punishment, as is tying a chicken carcass around a dog's neck.  Saying "No" to a dog is a correction, IMO.  There is a difference although it *might* be considered subtle by some.

So define "correction"

Punishment = adding something that makes a behaviour less likely to occur in frequency and/or intensity.

If your dog is doing something and you say no and it makes him stop, it is a punishment even if you don't want to see it that way.

ETA: The difference is dictated by the dog. My Rotti doesn't give a rats about a physical correction, it doesn't change her behaviour and therefore it isn't punishment. If I say NO to her (obviously depending on the tone of voice I use) she is beside herself. For her a verbal correction is far more punishing than a physical one.

Edited December 27, 2005 by haven

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Punishment is not correction. I'm not sure how else to explain what I'm talking about other than the examples I've provided in the thread. Punishment is, for example, hitting a dog b/c it does something you don't want it to do. Correction is a simple "No" and redirecting the dog to the appropriate activity or task.

Geez, I don't really know what else to say. Punishment is something that you don't aspire to, whereas correction is. Is that any more helpful?

[haven]

You can colour it any way you want if it makes you feel better, but if you say NO to your dog when he/she is doing something and it makes that behaviour occur with less frequency and/or intensity, it is defined as punishment.

The term punishment does not equate to cruelty or doing a dog harm, it is a sceintific term that means, by definition, providing a consequence that makes a behaviour occur with less frequency and/or intensity, positive punishment meaning you add something (like saying NO etc) and negative punishment meaning you take something away (withold and expected reinforcer etc).

[Kavik]

lilysmum

haven is giving the operant conditioning definition of punishment. Anything which decreases the frequency of the behaviour is termed punishment in operant conditioning terms. While it is an emotive term, here it has a simple scientific meaning in learning theory.

It would be useful to have a link to operant conditioning terms

[PAX]

If your dog is doing something and you say no and it makes him stop, it is a punishment even if you don't want to see it that way.

ETA: The difference is dictated by the dog. My Rotti doesn't give a rats about a physical correction, it doesn't change her behaviour and therefore it isn't punishment. If I say NO to her (obviously depending on the tone of voice I use) she is beside herself. For her a verbal correction is far more punishing than a physical one.

Havens Example clearly shows how "NO" can be a punishment.

Good job Haven

It really depends on the dog. I think to a novice dog "no" doesnt mean much but to a trained dog it can be quite a punishment.

[Lablover]

If your dog is doing something and you say no and it makes him stop, it is a punishment even if you don't want to see it that way.

ETA: The difference is dictated by the dog.  My Rotti doesn't give a rats about a physical correction, it doesn't change her behaviour and therefore it isn't punishment.  If I say NO to her (obviously depending on the tone of voice I use) she is beside herself.  For her a verbal correction is far more punishing than a physical one.

Havens Example clearly shows how "NO" can be a punishment.

Good job Haven

It really depends on the dog. I think to a novice dog "no" doesnt mean much but to a trained dog it can be quite a punishment.

I no no no my dogs quietly for bad choices. Obviously the dogs are into my own training program, which is very limited in physical corrections.

Sorry to change the topic, but another reason why I am a little anti clicker as both correct and incorrect choices by other marker can cue the dog and help clarify our requirements.

Regarding the topic at hand, non instant correction and praise are both a road for confusion.

[PAX]

Have we gone Off topic again??

[haven]

It really depends on the dog. I think to a novice dog "no" doesnt mean much but to a trained dog it can be quite a punishment.

Good point Pax.

Both tone of voice and prior learning play a part here. Obviously a low, growly tone is naturally punishing to most dogs reguardless of what word you actually say.

Some people (like myself) use the term NO as a no reward mark, to indicate that whatever behaviour being offered will not be reinforced.

But either way, whether or not it is a punishment for the dog is dictated by how the dogs behaviour is affected, it is not punishment simply because we as humans consider it would be so.

[Daxilly]

Hi. Thanks for all the great replies! Funnily enough I found my reaction to my ACD, after the event, was very upsetting for her. She picked up on the negative response and even got to the point where she wouldn't eat. An example perhaps, of excluding her from the pack as being more severe in her mind than the chicken around the neck. That was one of the reasons I posted as I thought her reaction was extreme and was not sure whether she was still relating it to the chicken killing. I have just spent my holidays putting galvanised Dog Fence up around the pen. However, will this just frustrate her and should I also try relating the chickens to a form of punishment/negative stimulus when I am not around ie an electric fence /citronella collar? I don't want her to start barking at the chickens which she can no longer access and annoy the neighbours. By the way since the chicken around the neck she has shown no interest in the remaining ones. Whether it worked is yet to be proven.

[Rusky]

for Lillysmum

not the best link but short simple paragraphs to explain the what is of positive and negative punishment, well descriptions for all sorts really. I hope it helps. One night a couple of weeks ago a mate and I got really heated over the descriptions then we burst out laughing

It may be that some here will disagree with the very loose descriptions from this site, but it does give a general idea.

training descriptions