MonElite Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Management is great and stress free when you can control all aspects of the external environment. It fails greatly when sh*t happens.... A dog doesnt chase chickens when they are locked up, show him a seagul on the other side of the road while you fail to hold on to the lead he is on, and you have a sh*t happens situation..... True story - my friend that is a vet told me that there was a customer that arrived with their dog to amputate a dogs leg so that it wouldnt jump a fence and run away. Apparently they have done "everything" to keep the dog in the yard Thats management taken a bit further for you......... BTW vet refused to amputate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 R: and what about the dogs that lurrve that game? K9: as suggested you find an alternate aversive. R: I prefer not to have washing hanging out when the dog that would exhibit that behaviour is alone K9: The washing on the line was an example, however this tells me much about your dog... R: does it matter so long as the washing isn't mangled?I mean management or training, maybe sometimes we need a bit of training. K9: that argument can be taken all the way to "no dog should be trained at all". The idea of training is to have the dog enjoy as much freedom as it can without having a negative impact on the other pack members... R: I was never a mother who taught her kids 'not to touch' I removed all they could damage or hurt themselves on. K9: so I guess you never took them to anyone else's home then? R: When the children reached an age of understanding then I explained why they should not touch... and they didn't.good management... no tears... happy relaxed mother K9: #1, children arent dogs, #2 you brought children into the equation & #3 you chose to train your kids at an age where they could understand, I cant see anywhere that people suggested scolding or trying to "reliably" train a baby puppy? #4. I bet you wouldnt be so relaxed if your kids that were never taught not to touch were running around some one elses home where there was much to be ware. Of course you could avoid taking your kids there, or keep a hold of them, but again I cant see you ending up a "happy relaxed mother" & this also removes some freedom... There is always two sides to every scale... management = less training = less freedom. Trining doesnt always equal tears either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I've always avoided hanging long flapping washing out when I've had a pup. I choose a time that the pup would be supervised then hang out the towels and sheets etc. I belive this is setting up the dog to succeed. If you prevent a problem from starting by a bit of management in the beginning the dog is a whole lot better off. Prevent the problem first rather than play catch up by correcting, has worked well for all my dogs and the fosters I have had, including the current 10 month old greyhound boy who just loves to pick up everything in his mouth, just like a toddler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) R: I've always avoided hanging long flapping washing out when I've had a pup. K9: keep in mind the washing being taken from the line was an example to explain why I prefer consequences over punishment. R: I belive this is setting up the dog to succeed. If you prevent a problem from starting by a bit of management in the beginning the dog is a whole lot better off. K9: this really isnt true, if you never expose your dog to washing & teach him that it isnt acceptable, you will be forever in management. A successful step is only effective when there is an unsuccessful step if you want reliability. R: Prevent the problem first rather than play catch up by correcting, has worked well for all my dogs and the fosters I have had, including the current 10 month old greyhound boy who just loves to pick up everything in his mouth, just like a toddler. K9: there are three stages to training a dog, the learning stage, the correction stage & the distraction stage. If you never expose your dog to washing that he might want, you have missed the most crucial stage of training, the distraction stage. This is no different than keeping your dog away from cats for 2 years then expecting that the dog will not chase cats, you have no idea what the dog will do & more importantly the dog has no idea what you want him to do, as the bridge of cats has never been crossed. As in the OP situation, this dog may not have been around chickens, possibly due to the fencing, this would be considered management. Now thats the fencing the dog now has broken through to get to the chickens. Management = more management, training = less management. R: including the current 10 month old greyhound boy who just loves to pick up everything in his mouth, just like a toddler. K9: greys have a strong natural prey drive, if you dont teach this breed they cannot chase & bite everything they find prey stimulating you have an out of control dog, management wont work when prey drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli. What does work is teaching the dog "this is fine to chase, that is not ok to chase"... Edited December 21, 2005 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zia's Nuthouse Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Showdog I realise you are obviously upset by this incident, but I think you are being a bit harsh. I don't get the impression that the OP is 'jumping up and down like it was unexpected' and think that to suggest that the dog now hates it's owner is excessive.It is likely that the method of tying the chicken around the dogs neck was suggested by someone. It was and probably still is a popular method of dealing with stock killing in some areas. It is called aversion training and it actually can work sometimes, but Muttley, there are much better ways of using aversion training than the method you described. The suggestion made of seeing a qualified trainer to help you with this issue is an excellent one. As also mentioned, a secure area for the chickens is a must. No matter how well socialised your dog and how good she may be around the chickens, a dogs prey drive is permenantly recallable under the right circumstances. very well said Haven Geesh the poor owner came here for advice. And its funny that you say "dog's don't forget" yet its fine to say that punishing them does no good because they "forget" what they did wrong? That in itself is enough to confuse anybody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 K9: this really isnt true, if you never expose your dog to washing & teach him that it isnt acceptable, you will be forever in management. Me:Funny how I can now leave my washing out all day, dangling all over the place without a worry in the world K9: there are three stages to training a dog, the learning stage, the correction stage & the distraction stage. If you never expose your dog to washing that he might want, you have missed the most crucial stage of training, the distraction stage. Me:See above. It has worked for me with many dogs. No need for a correction stage with my method so far. K9: greys have a strong natural prey drive, if you dont teach this breed they cannot chase & bite everything they find prey stimulating you have an out of control dog, management wont work when prey drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli. Me:Thanks I am quite familiar with greys and their prey drive. I have 4 cats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 R: Me:Funny how I can now leave my washing out all day, dangling all over the place without a worry in the world K9: thats an interesting management program.. You might also consider that not all dogs are the same, in fact no two are alike, so whilts your giving a recount of what your ONE dog will or wont do, Im talking about conbsiderably more than one. Thresholds to prey drive, previous training etc will all come into account. R: Me:See above. It has worked for me with many dogs. No need for a correction stage with my method so far. K9: maybe you can explain what you think the correction stage is? R: Me:Thanks I am quite familiar with greys and their prey drive. I have 4 cats K9: then I guess we will all be directing our training questions to you... but, the OP was asking for a FIX, not what they should have done, hindsight is quite a powerful tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 K9: The washing on the line was an example, however this tells me much about your dog... wondering what it tells you ? haha my dog is not a problem with washing, my children did visit peoples places, when they were small they sat on my knee. No tears, no stress. Why set a dog/kid up to fail? Myszka re the vet and the leg. I seriously hope you are not suggesting I would condone something like that. If you do you have not read what I have written take it back a step. dog kills chicken man punished dog I am sad for the man he did the wrong thing. I am sad for the dog. find a solution 'keep dog away from chickens... problem solved. If you have a dog that that chases seagulls I would say it is a happy well balanced dog, being a dog. If the dog lunges when you are walking then the dog and you need some leash training . I know this was an example and not your own dog... unlike K9 I do read the threads and the post hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005  Why set a dog/kid up to fail? so you can show it that doing the wrong thing will have consequences.  I seriously hope you are not suggesting I would condone something like that of course I dont. I have given this as an example for a management program gone wrong  If you have a dog that that chases seagulls I would say it is a happy well balanced dog, being a dog. About 6 months ago a dobermann bitch, 18 months old chased a seagull, didnt see the cliff.... fell than died in the owners arms before they managed to get her up the hill to the vet. if only she obeyed a recall comand.... she always did when there were no seagulls to chase. Guess what? Their training stoped before the distraction phase, maybe even before the correction phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 R: wondering what it tells you ? haha K9: with all your experience, you should know... R: my dog is not a problem with washing K9: neither are mine, but as other peoples may be, its a worthwhile example. R: my children did visit peoples places, when they were small they sat on my knee. No tears, no stress. K9: how many knees you git vs how many kids? Just remember not all kids will happily sit there, so again your experience may not be others... As I mentioned, its a dull life sitting on mums knee all the time as you havent been taught right from wrong. Maintenance = lack of freedom.. R: Why set a dog/kid up to fail? K9: I train dogs not kids, I did mention there is a considerable difference, you seem to have missed that. You set up a dog to fail so that you remove that option when your proofing the dog later. R: 'keep dog away from chickens... problem solved. K9: the problem isnt solved at all, it simply avoided. The next time a bird lands in the yard what then, or when the dog is walked & cmes in eye contact with birds of any kind, or like the child example you take the dog to someones home who had a bird & hell breaks loose. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for a way to train around this problem rather than simply avoiding it. Im sure you will know this but, lets say this dog of the OPs is kept out via a better fence, as the dog feels that chasing chickens is great way to satisfy prey drive, the fence only provides frustration, knowing that frustration is a great drive builder, I would not be surprised to see this dog self harming trying to get through the fence if no training is done. But then I guess the maintenance program would be kill the dog? R: If you have a dog that that chases seagulls I would say it is a happy well balanced dog, being a dog. K9: here are a few considerations... 1. if the dog catches the seagul, & is reported it can be PTS or declared dangerous, the act of chasing could also be considered the same in todays climate. 2. when the dog is running off chasing, it wont obey you so if it flies accross a road? R: If the dog lunges when you are walking then the dog and you need some leash training K9: ok, so maybe you can share with us how you would leash train the dog? & then tell us how when the dog is off leash, why he wont chase the birds? R: unlike K9 I do read the threads and the post hahaha K9: Im glad your amused, maybe when reading all of this post, you will answer the questions too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 K9: just a thought on "punishment" as a training tool.I dont like to punish a dog at all ever, when you punish a dog you are chaining or pairing yourself into the sequence of events. For example, dog pulls washing off the line, even if you catch the dog in the act & punish the dog, when the complete sequence is not present, in other words, you are not there, the dog will still pull washing from the line. I use "consequences", these are actions that are brought about by the dogs actions. Dog pulls washing off the line & finds a water balloon that bursts all over him.. Nothing to do with the hanlder, yet effective. Yes, K9, my thoughts exactly. I cannot ever condone punishing a dog - providing undesirable consequences, yes, punishment, no. It's just not fair on the dog and leads to a poor dog-human relationship. I'm sure the OP has learnt from this mistake and will endeavour to learn how to better communicate with the dog. BTW - when we talk about "dog training", IMO most of the training is directed at the human (learning how to communicate and work with the dog) rather than at the dog. That's of course, JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) K9: thanks Lillysmum, its always nice to remember that a dog can be in control of positive & negative consequences, but not in control of how one punishes a dog. Punishment is often anger driven by some trainers, which = inconsistency & often over correction.. Perhaps when R answers the questions I asked we will learn another view. Edited December 21, 2005 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 gee and I walked my dogs on the beach every morning along with a mass of others. I never saw a dog catch a gull. I certainly would not be allowing my dogs off lead near a cliff if they didn't have a reliable recall. K9 I have 5 children, the baby is 21. They can never visit friends places unless they have my knee to sit on, poor unsociable outcasts My diary is full of parties and rock concerts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 R: unlike K9 I do read the threads and the post hahaha K9: you must have missed this K9: maybe when reading all of this post, you will answer the questions too? K9: I guess thats your way of fixing things, avoidance... R: I never saw a dog catch a gull. K9: you never seen high enough prey drive... R: I certainly would not be allowing my dogs off lead near a cliff if they didn't have a reliable recall. K9: how would you teach such a recall? I understand if you dont wish to answer this & my other questions, just seemed you had all the answers before..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 gee and I walked my dogs on the beach every morning along with a mass of others. I never saw a dog catch a gull. I certainly would not be allowing my dogs off lead near a cliff if they didn't have a reliable recall. change the gull to a rabbit, seen one of those counght by a dog? I have... How would you know if your dog had a reliable recall if you (according to your management theory) never let it chase one, not even near a cliff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Oh I just found something that I though might be somewhat appropriate to show.. only somewhat..... http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=RqjRlKu...0training%20dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 You will know how to teach recall I guess, if you need a hand though be sure to pm me. this thread is about a dog that got a chicken K9 you introduced the washing and Myszka introduced dogs running after gulls and rabbits now.. blimey My solution to the dog that killed the chicken is to secure the chickens. Yours is something else what is is anyway? neither you nor Miszka have offered a solution just washing balloons and dogs flying off cliffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I cannot ever condone punishing a dog - providing undesirable consequences, yes, punishment, no. You guys have lost me. A punishment is a stimulus that reduces the likelihood of a particular behaviour. What is an undesirable consequence used for if not to reduce the likelihood of a particular behavior? Aren'tyou just exchanging one word for another, or do you mean someone acting out of temper rather than attempting to eliminate a behaviour? I'm confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Cactus, I believe the distinction they are trying to make is between punishment as perceived by the dog as coming from the handler and that which occurs without being associated with the handler. EG K9 mentioned hiding water balloons in washing, providing a punisher when the dog trys to pull the washing off the line. Very diferent from the dogs perspective from receiving a verbal (NO) or physical (leash correction) punisher from the handler for the same behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxilly Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Hi! Sorry have been off line for a couple of days. The only reason I thought the original punishmnet was OK was because I did a search on DOL and it was a suggested course of action. Trust me it was not something that I enjoyed. It was mentioned to leave the chicken on until it rotted off. That was not going to happen! I was in tears the whole time, thinking I was doing the right thing but not being happy about it . That was why I took it off after a couple of hours. Am now trying to think of ways to stop her getting to them. Was looking at installing the Innotek system around the pen, but from my DOL search there are also many mixed opinions about this. Would a physical barrier be better ie puppy/dog wire or use this Innotek system. The problem is that the other dog (Lab) is fine with chickens so she would be going in but the ACD would be getting sound/mild shocks if she goes close to the pen. Don't know whether this is good as one dog is then being treated differently to the other. So maybe the wire would be better. Help!!!! PS I live in country NSW. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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