Kavik Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Which behaviourist did you have come out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Which behaviourist did you have come out? Dogtech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 cactus are you doing what the behviourist told you or what the trainer told you or a mixture of both and do they both know about each other. I am confused about the training V *real* training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Rusky, the initial training was just mine- what I made up and described in other posts. The current training is what I've been told to do for the next two weeks, as advised by the behavioural therapist who came and met the dogs. He did say it would get worse before it gets better. Maybe thats whats happening. It just feels awful and none of us is happy. I guess the only way to find out is to continue for the duration and see if it falls into place. It was nice to see them happy tonight when my mum came over- she is allowed to be affectionate with them and they responded really positively to that. I'm not allowed to. Only pats on top of the head *if* they do something to earn it. And of course corrections if Zara doesn't. I feel like a hag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamby Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Hi Cactus Have you heard of the Delta Society? You can find them if you go to the Delta site and search for a Delta trainer at http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/ I belong to a club that has mainly Delta Instructors and I have found them very knowledgable. Gamby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamby Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Whoops, forgot to add He did say it would get worse before it gets better. definatley happens. Gamby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Have you heard of the Delta Society? You can find them if you go to the Delta site and search for a Delta trainer at http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/I belong to a club that has mainly Delta Instructors and I have found them very knowledgable. I hadn't heard of them Gamby. What is the difference between an animal behaviourist and a veterinary behaviourist? My guy calls himself a behavioural therapist. But what the Dogtech website says about no harsh methods isnt *my* view of *not harsh*. Sure you use a flat collar, but whats the difference if you're still using it to strangle your dog? :p If I were Zara I'd bite me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongrel scum Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 without reading all the posts on this thread (I am lazy lol), I'd say that the Black Dog head halter is better than the Halti or the Gentle Leader. mong man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I am surprised that a dog behaviourist would tell you to pat the dog on the head, dogs don't like head pats. Look I know nothing about the dog whisperer crew but there will be people on the board from your area who might be able to suggest someone else to get a second opinion. Isn't my view of 'not harsh' either cactus. I am pretty surprised. You said you got a trainer too or was it the same person you meant? I think you meant yourself and sounded like you were doing a pretty good job. You need a trainer. Try Gambys suggestion, give them a call, tell them everything, make sure they understand you have already employed a behaviourist and who it is. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 C: He did say it would get worse before it gets better. Maybe thats whats happening. It just feels awful and none of us is happy. I guess the only way to find out is to continue for the duration and see if it falls into place. K9: getting worse before it gets better means the method is reliant on the dog recieving no reward for its actions & getting frustrated, often resulting in an extinction burst, this can be avoided with a more thorough program. If you persist on & what is going on is the dog is getting worse, your making a mistake.. R: I am surprised that a dog behaviourist would tell you to pat the dog on the head, dogs don't like head pats. K9: this is untrue, "some" dogs may find it threatening.... Solid dogs most often have no issue with it. Not knowing whop came out, this person has assessed the dog (I would think) & obviously feels a head pat is rewarding to the dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 If you persist on & what is going on is the dog is getting worse, your making a mistake.. Its hard to know what to do- you pay a professional for their advice, then dont want to take it? I am changing it slightly (and he'll probably tell me in two weeks thats why I'm still having to work on her) ;) I no longer do the bonding ritual- holding the treat so she will come then moving it in a circle up over her head so she will sit and then putting the treat in her mouth as soon as she sits (no verbal comands). It was making her lunge, jump and bite. I am surprised that a dog behaviourist would tell you to pat the dog on the head, dogs don't like head pats. The idea of the single stroke over the head is that it replicated what the mother would have done, and it shows that you are dominant, but can be trusted. She has been hit and yelled at in her last home, and she even got an accidental clock on the side of the head from me one day when I had treats in my closed hand and she jumped up and lunged toward my face. I reflexively leaned back and swung my arm out to protect myself and I think I got her in the side of the head with my wrist The experience made us both a little wary of each other I think. I know she has dominance issues, thats why I called him in, but I cant help feeling I havent been given an assessment of MY dogs in OUR environment. The reason I doubt this is that the instructions he has given me, for a big dog who has been neglected in the backyard for 3 years, then flown interstate to live with a new family and another dog, put on a new diet, cant be taken out for much needed exercise etc is the SAME identical advice given to my mother who has just bought a great dane pup and is the SAME identical advice given to her friend who has two barking sausage dogs that have been spoilt rotten. In no way has it been tailored to suit the different animals or circumstances. Maybe this is correct. I dont know, I'm not a trainer and this is my first experience needing one. getting worse before it gets better means the method is reliant on the dog recieving no reward for its actions & getting frustrated, often resulting in an extinction burst, this can be avoided with a more thorough program I just dont know whether to persist and give it a chance to work, or abandon it so early on to avoid making things worse and try something else. A miracle is supposed to happen in this two weeks. So long as I STICK to the plan, I am supposed to have an obedient dog that gets along with my current dog and will be safe to introduce to my cats. I wish I could speak to someone for whom this miracle occurred so I could get some reassurance that I'm not just being a fool to go along with it. Traing dogs is like raising kids, no matter what you do you still worry you're going to screw them up.... cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 K9: I always supply at least one control program so that from the time you leave our facility you have control. The other programs I include give you pack leader position, the above are often standard, once this is in operation we address the problem you came for. But with control & leadership you dont have the extinction burst, so the program flows smoothly. I try & make sure I restore faith (hope) in the owner by showing results immediatly, this ensures you will persist. In most cases we show a 70% plus improvment at the time of consultation then attempt to achieve another 20% in 2 - 4 weeks. The last 10 % coming within 8 - 12 weeks in many cases. The results you have been promised will not come, each of the things you mentioned are handled differently, so will be a step in their own, but without control & leadership yo would stand zero chance. I dont think what your doing will neccessarily cause any harm so contuing at worst will probably just cost you time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 But with control & leadership you dont have the extinction burst, so the program flows smoothly. That is interesting, because (apart from the bonding task which I'm not doing anyway) the leadership walk is the only actual TRAINING I'm being told to do. He said once I have de-ranked both dogs and established that I'm the leader it will all fall into place... Apart from that 5 min task we do twice a day I just have to give no free pats, pat only on top of the body (preferably a stroke back across the head), make them wait at least 15 mins for their food to be set down (and alternate the feeding order)and ignore them for 10 mins when I come home. Plus keep them separated. Thats it. I asked him if it was ok that I continue to teach come sit stay drop etc and he said sure, so long as I dont use verbal commands during the leadership walk. He said verbal commands are requests and dont make the dog *think* about what they are supposed to do. I don't need a 2 week miracle, I just need to feel that the dog's needs have not been misread, and that the tasks I do will achieve their purpose. I have a lot of patience and am prepared to put in a lot of time and effort to get the dog I want and believe she can be Do you run any programs on the Gold Coast? cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek Dog Tech. There are many people who have used them here including myself. They have the same 2 week training program for every dog they do a session with. The word 'dominance' is way over used and their program is to knock out the so-called dominance. So I guess you're doing the following or similar program that they always use: 1) No walks for 2 weeks 2) Teathering dog whilst it's inside 3) No sleeping in the bedroom and not on the furniture 4) Only one pat to the top of the head to show you are dominant during backyard training 5) You must eat before the dog and during this time the dog must be able to see its food 6) Only pats when the dog does something to deserve it and only to the head 7) Train the dog to heel by walking around in circles in your backyard and suddenly stopping and giving a check to the collar. I use the term 'emotionaly harsh' methods of training for the owner with Dog Tech. With Steve at K9 Force I never felt guilty or bad with any of his methods, his methods work and work fast because he actually knows about dogs unlike a money hungry franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 (edited) thanks SAS I don't know anything about dog tech, yes harsh. The people she is using though are dog whisperers and they seem to be using similar methods. There must be an independant trainer in cactus's area. ok edited to add a link k9 events trainers private reward based Edited December 23, 2005 by Rusky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 (edited) They have the same 2 week training program for every dog they do a session with. .......... So I guess you're doing the following or similar program that they always use:1) No walks for 2 weeks 2) Teathering dog whilst it's inside 3) No sleeping in the bedroom and not on the furniture 4) Only one pat to the top of the head to show you are dominant during backyard training 5) You must eat before the dog and during this time the dog must be able to see its food 6) Only pats when the dog does something to deserve it and only to the head 7) Train the dog to heel by walking around in circles in your backyard and suddenly stopping and giving a check to the collar. And it doesn't seem to make any difference to them what the problem is, be it fear; fear aggression; dominance; dominance aggression; or even no problem at all - they seem to use the same program. And if your dog then develops issues (eg. digging; destructive behaviour etc.)because it's bored, then "that's normal" and they'll deal with that later. So, if you have a dog with no problems, it will develop problems and then they can deal with them further down the track. ;) (This has actually happened to a friend of mine.) ETA: Mind you, I have no issues with points numbered 3-6, but that's not what it's all about. Edited December 23, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 So long as I STICK to the plan, I am supposed to have an obedient dog that gets along with my current dog and will be safe to introduce to my cats. And when it doesn't work, they'll tell you it's because you can't have stuck to the plan, even though you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 There are many people who have used them here including myself. They have the same 2 week training program for every dog they do a session with.The word 'dominance' is way over used and their program is to knock out the so-called dominance. So I guess you're doing the following or similar program that they always use: 1) No walks for 2 weeks 2) Teathering dog whilst it's inside 3) No sleeping in the bedroom and not on the furniture 4) Only one pat to the top of the head to show you are dominant during backyard training 5) You must eat before the dog and during this time the dog must be able to see its food 6) Only pats when the dog does something to deserve it and only to the head 7) Train the dog to heel by walking around in circles in your backyard and suddenly stopping and giving a check to the collar. I use the term 'emotionaly harsh' methods of training for the owner with Dog Tech. yup. plus i have to treat kiki the same way and she doesn't understand why i have been so *cold* with her. tonight i have sat between them on the floor giving them untold unearned pats and scratches ;) i do have zara tethered, because she has never been indoors before and has trouble settling with kiki there to pester. She is perfectly contented to be tethered to the sofa, as its prime real estate and she is beside kiki and both in the same kind of bed. I wish I could take her to the park to burn off some energy, but I cant physically control her- thats why I wanted the halter, but the guy says she cant go out anyway. I know I'm not supposed to giver her the attention I have tonight, but she has lacked it her whole life, and it calms her. I want her to feel like this is her home and we are her family- doing it his way she was really no better off than she was at her last home. I know I have to, and want to be the leader, but we need to bond as well- and we just weren't getting to know each other following those rigid rules. I was so upset last night, I couldn't stand it any longer. With Steve at K9 Force I never felt guilty or bad with any of his methods, his methods work and work fast because he actually knows about dogs unlike a money hungry franchise. Yeah, they're not cheap, but I was happy to pay it to get quality advice. I kept thinking, it cant be right if it feels this bad, but then I'd think well what would I know about training difficult dogs? He's the professional afterall. Except that he doesn't have any actual credentials cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 There must be an independant trainer in cactus's area.ok edited to add a link k9 events trainers private reward based Thanks Erny, but unfortunately none of those trainers are within an hour of me cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 Why don't you contact Steve at K9 Force, he's bound to know someone in your area that he can reccomend to you. Just wanted to say, some things dogtech do are part of the nilif method and some are just pointless and outdated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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