cactus Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 I have used a halti before- when I got my first RR rescue she pulled on the leash and this trained her to be perfect on leash. I dont know how a Gentle Leader is different, but apparently mum's behaviourist guy said haltis are not recommended. He said corrective harnesses are best. I dont know anything about them either (except they are expensive!) I need to buy ONE of them as the new RR rescue doesn't just pull, damn she could tow my car for me!! We will not be setting foot out the door until I have *something* to effectively control her. She is one helluva dominant dawgy. cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 There's been many discussions on halti's in the past, over all they'r enot terribly popular when it comes to training a dog not to pull, people have different reasons for not being a fan of a halter or harness. I have tried both the halti and gentle leader and I like neither of them, if you must use a halter I would reccomend the new black dog head halter which has the lead clip at the back of the head, I have previously used it on my dane prior to going onto a prong collar. Are you able to get to dog training classes to teach you how to teach your pooch how to heel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 16, 2005 Author Share Posted December 16, 2005 Are you able to get to dog training classes to teach you how to teach your pooch how to heel? I am able to get her to sit, drop, stay, and return to her bed- but compliance is unpredictable. I am still curbing behaviours like jumping up at me and lunging at my face as well as a myriad of other lesser dominant behaviours. Zara is about 36 kgs, but is 4 times as powerful as Kiki is at 35 kgs. She is way too powerful and headstrong for me to even take her to the vet, and I really would like to get her checked over for underlying health problems. She had something up with the outside of her ears when I picked her up, inside her ears is so dark I cant see whats what, she has a manky sore between her toes, and she seems to have had a sudden weight loss, as her skin is really loose on her and her belly hangs eveb though she was desexed as a pup. If nothing else I think she needs doggie ritalin! Until such time as I have a tool (halti/harness etc)I cant take her anywhere. Everytime I open the door to the garage I run the risk of her crashing past me into the house (she love to get my cats) so thats why I make her return to her bed in the down position before I come in. If she fails to do it I shut the door and try again in another minute. My laundry is also in the garage, and it ended up taking 20 minutes to go in and turn the machine on because she was being an obstinate little so and so There is nothing this dog does that doesnt ooze dominance, you can almost smell it on her I only got her the other day after she had suffered 3 years of neglect at her previous home, so I'm not expecting her to come good instantly. I'd like to be able to have the two girls together, but I have to keep them separated because of Zaras dominance- I dont want to see Kiki with fear aggression issues. cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 If you have a need of them, I do not like the Halti Brand. I find it is not as adjustable as say the Gentle Leader or Black Dog Head Halters. My preferance of the brands is Black Dog. It is more adjustable around the muzzle, where Haltis can be poor fitting there. Likewise the Halti Brand because it uses shiny webbing, you have to put a stitch or two in the strap that goes behind the head to secure it because it will work itself loose. The Black Dog there uses a cotton ribbed webbing which does not move as much as the Halti Brand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 (edited) what breed of dog is she? For some dogs the halti doesn't fit too well and for others the gentle leader isn't a good fit. I still like the halti but you really need someone to help you use and fit it correctly and combine with obedience training. The black dog now make a head halter in such a way as many of us were already adapting the halti brand before they went to supermarkets. I think the new haltis are finer and differently sized. I know a guy using a gentle leader which was fitted very recently for him and his dog it is the best option. worked out the breed silly me didn't realise RR was the breed thought it was a rescue group name Edited December 17, 2005 by Rusky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamby Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Hi I have tried all the halti types and I found the new Black Dog Ifin-8 brilliant. It is a different version of the figure eight and much more adaptable. I don't think a halti would suit your dog at all at this present time. Is there any chance of you having a Vet come to you? That swounds like it would be a much better option for you. I found the Ezy Walker that goes around the dogs front legs and does up at the back very good for a dog that was so pushy. It quietened her down really well. That dog was a short haired dog and the Ezy walker wouldn't work on a long haired dog. I wish you luck in finding something to help you get control of the dog. It sounds like you have an uphill battle on your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReXy Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 i have found the black dog halti to be the better option for us the gentle leader had little or no affect on my dogs and didnt fit properly, not with the black dog halter i can practicly walk him with two fingers,,, prior to that i needed two hands and he pulled my arm out... lol as i have a bad shoulder this made it difficult for me to walk him... i have used a halti brand some years ago ona roti and had not much success with that.. also might add both dogs have had obedience training as well i think obedience and training is at the top of the list these things are only a tool used for training not a long term soloution but they do IMO help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 17, 2005 Author Share Posted December 17, 2005 Thanks for all your responses, they were great I'll try out the Black Dog halter this week. Obedience classes would be no use to me right now, as she is fully able to carry out the comands, but is sometimes wiful and eager to be distracted. Because of my disc injury I cant risk her jerking or pulling me on the leash, so I just cant take her anywhere until I get that under control. The problem is not so much the walking, as it is when she sees something (another dog, a cat etc) and she just CHARGES.I am going to get a behaviourist to come and see them and give me some tips, but until then I am just trying to let her settle in as comfortably as possible but taking every opportunity to show her *I* am the top dog and not her. I dont let her lick me, paw me, wimper to come in, jump up, or get anything that is on offer until she obeys the command given. I am using tidbits as rewards (because praise distracts her and makes her mis-behave) and if she does something wrong (like lunging at me), I say Aha! And make her sit. If she doesn't follow a command I walk away and shut the door and try again in a minute. Mostly she obeys first time, but sometimes she just has it on her and I may attempt it 3 or 4 times before she does it. I have had her in the house twice today (I shut the cats in the rooms they were sleeping in) I made her drop/stay on her bed while I opened the garage door, and backed into the loungeroom then called her in and made her sit straight away (she gets real giddy- especially if I tell her 'good girl'!). Then I let her roam around smelling everything (twice!) then I got her to lay at my feet, and while I rested one leg over her I calmly stroked her head for about 10 mins. I gave both girls a roasted smoked pigs ear, and while Kiki enjoyed her treat as usual, Zara looked like she was in raptures! I'd say she's never had anything like that before. She's such a lovely dog, its a shame she was treated as she has been for so long Thanks to everyone who posted, I'll let you know how we get on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Sounds like you're doing a great job with pooch. I know what it's like to have a strong dog! ;) And a dog with no manners, have you tried the NILIF methods? It sounds like you're using it to a certaim degree at the moment. Everyone has different opinions on what is most suitable for a pulling dog and a strong dog, I guess just research each one and find one that is the best for you and pooch. For Turbo, he's fear aggressive, I need him to feel safe and I need to be able to have him under control at all times. We recently had a session with Steve at K9 Force here in Sydney, I think he's excellent so does Turbo. Turbo now heels with just one word, when I got him, he would pull you down the road and if you saw another dog, gawd it was all on! Turbo is on a prong collar, this is the best decision for myself anf Turbo, my initial thoughts on prong collars wasn't positive based on what they looked like but with further education about them, I find them one of the most gentlist ways of teaching your dog and allowing it to make it's own decisions. Love to hear how you and pooch get on. I'm not sure how big your dog is, but if you look on the Black Dog website for sizing and if your dog would fit Turbo's old Black Dog Halter you're welcome to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 17, 2005 Author Share Posted December 17, 2005 Hi sas, I think Zara and I both need a break from training today. Now she's dropping most of the time when I say sit- I dont know how to correct that .... :sigh: I'm still getting her to go to her bed when I enter, but no treats- every second time I go in I walk over and stroke her head, and the other times I go in and dont go near her because I didn't want to encourage her to go bananas every time I go through the door (and most of the time I go in for something from the laundry or to use the tub and not to see her anyway!) She's lunging less without treats in my hand. I'm trying not to expect too much, as she has never had any training- she wouldn't even 'come' for her last owners, and she really only just got here. But jeeze today I'm finding it frustrating. She doesnt listen at all when Kiki is present- instead Kiki follows all the commands I dont 'train' her in Kiki's prescence, but if I need her to do something like come to me while she is in the yard with Kiki, I have to remove Kiki first. I'm hoping the halter will give me a bit more control over her. I went to the Black Dog site- Zara is a size 5 in the infin8 halter. What an effort it was trying to measure her for it- I practically needed her in one so I could measure her for one. I think I need a ;) I wish I could have a Georgie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 19, 2005 Author Share Posted December 19, 2005 The behaviourist is coming tomorrow! Yay! :cool: Maybe somewhere duringthat three hours he can tell me why yesterday Zara kept licking Kiki's girlie bits and then tried to hump a blanket! I didn't get a girl dog for this!! cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Well the Behaviourist came tonight- pity I ordered the infinit8 halter yesterday and picked it up this morning, because he doesn't want me to use it. BooHoo. He said its okay for a dog thats trained, but I said I wont need it when she's trained... So the humping thing was just another of Zara's dominance behaviours. He said I'm doing everything right EXCEPT- I have preserved rank order and that is why the girls arent getting on. Zara is threatening Kiki's position, and because she's higher, Kiki is feeling the need to maintain her position. So... they have to be kept separate for two weeks (unless I am with them, then Zara has to be on a leash attached to the leg of the sofa so she cant reach Kiki) while I get rid of Zara's dominance, and during that time they must be treated exactly the same (no smooches for Kiki!). Normally kiki is collarless unless we are out, but since I have to put a collar on Zara, kiki must wear one too. Absolute equality. And he said dogs count how many pats you give the other Boy, during the leadership exercise Zara really showed her dominance! I thought I might get her a visor that says "Screw You!" because THAT was her attitude to the bloke! We took it in turns to walk slowly in a circle in the back yard with Zara on almost no length of leash- every now and again we would tug the leash upwards and touch her rump to make her sit (but saying nothing) if she sat she got one stroke on the head, if not we'd tug some more, if still nothing we'd continue walking making her stay level. We'd say good girl if she wasn't straining on the leash and tug while saying ah ah! if she did. I said to the bloke- I hope my neighbours dont take a photo of that (Zara nearly strangling herself on the leash) and dob me in to the RSPCA It looks very cruel, but I have to remind myself that she is in control of whether it gets tugged or not. The other thing we have to do is leave their food in plain sight for 15 mins before feeding them- we had been doing it for only 5 mins and eating something while they waited. BTW, he also says Kiki is over bonded with me. Is there such a thing? She never displays aggression, but she stops when I stop walking, and if I sit down she comes and sits by me. I just thought that was her being a sweet loyal dog (well at first I thought it was her timidity so I may have inadvertantly reinforced the behaviour). He said its okay because she is an older dog but can be dangerous in a dog that is only 2 or 3 years old. Anyone know anything about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Are you able to get to dog training classes to teach you how to teach your pooch how to heel? No, but after the two weeks of my son and I doing the leadership exercises etc, the trainer is going to meet me at the park to show me how to deal with her when she meets other dogs. Once I have that much control over her I'll see whether I can benefit from obedience classes. cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 My preferance of the brands is Black Dog. It is more adjustable around the muzzle, where Haltis can be poor fitting there. Likewise the Halti Brand because it uses shiny webbing, you have to put a stitch or two in the strap that goes behind the head to secure it because it will work itself loose. The Black Dog there uses a cotton ribbed webbing which does not move as much as the Halti Brand The Black Dog Halter I got wont stay on unless they are on leash, it just slackens and she removes it herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 worked out the breed silly me didn't realise RR was the breed thought it was a rescue group name Hehe, no worries Rusky The black dog now make a head halter in such a way as many of us were already adapting the halti brand before they went to supermarkets. I think thats the one I got this morning- The trainer guy doesn't like the way it fits up close around the underside of her face. I dont like the way she can get it off if there is any slack on the leash. Or the way it was twice the price of a halti Anyway, it may become obsolete before its even used! cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Black Dog Ifin-8 brilliant. It is a different version of the figure eight and much more adaptable. That's the one I got, but did your dog pull it off if the leash wasnt on? I don't think a halti would suit your dog at all at this present time. Is there any chance of you having a Vet come to you? That swounds like it would be a much better option for you. No, but the trainer told me to give him a ring if I needed him to go with me I just couldn't stress enough how careful I have to be with my back- its not your usual 'bad back' and I cannot risk being jerked by a pushy dog. I cant even do the leadership training by myself- I have to have my teenage son walk with me taking most of the force of the dogs pulling. The bit where you have to tug up while touching the rear was especially painful, because you are applying force, while bending and twisting. My physio would FREAK! Two weeks of this.... I wish you luck in finding something to help you get control of the dog. It sounds like you have an uphill battle on your hands. Thankyou Gamby!! Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 i think obedience and training is at the top of the list these things are only a tool used for training not a long term soloution but they do IMO help I wish the trainer thought that Lablover- I would be a lot better off if I was allowed to use it while we train her, but he said NO! He will get her used to it and show me how to use it properly in two weeks time when we are on top of her dominance and taking her for a walk for the first time. He said if I take her for a walk before the two weeks is finished, it will reawaken her dominance and cause her prey drive to kick in because they see a walk with their owner as setting out on a hunt? I dunno- it must be because they are hounds and she is just so damned head strong! Thank goodness I can still take my Kiki out cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Sounds like you're doing a great job with pooch. Thankyou sas. I'm trying my best- I am very new to all this (like REALLY new!) but I figure if I stay strong, and be patient, and follow good advice I will get there eventually. I guess this is a project to keep my mind busy while I am off work (which sucks big time- not work I love my job- It sucks not being able to be there)I dont want it to jeapardise my recovery though- its been slow enough as it is have you tried the NILIF methods? Yeah, Im using that, but have to toughen up. During the leadership exercise I kept giving her two strokes on the head. The trainer said Oh! She just got a free pat. No free pats! (or words to that effect) Turbo now heels with just one word, when I got him, he would pull you down the road and if you saw another dog, gawd it was all on! Well since you have all the experience and I all the problems, you wanna swap dogs????? cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I have used GL and Halti, I like Halti WAAAAYYY better, the extra straps along the muzzle make is much more difficult to remove, all my dogs can get a properly fit GL off in 2 seconds flat. I have never even heard of a blackdog halter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Training is going REALLY well. not. The first 4 days I made great progress- she had stopped lunging and jumping, and was returning to her bed, coming, sitting dropping and staying. After a bit over two days of *real* training, she is lunging, jumping, ignoring me, shying away from me and biting me. And my other dog doesn't know what the hell *she* has done wrong to be treated so coldly all of a sudden :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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