Breeds For Herding

[mjk05]

Okay- while everyone else is deleting their posts for some reason (mass disagreement, lack of confidence in convictions? I don't know :cool: ), I'm going to add some stuff (actually, an essay ).

I have some major concerns about the growing interest in recreational "herding".

1) Welfare of livestock. As Vickie pointed out (but deleted), sheep used for training and trials are subjected to stress. That may be obvious- injuries from bites, being run into fences or pulled down by dogs, the physical exertion of running around a paddock- or it can be less obvious. Dogs stress sheep by "working" them- being too close and fast, singling them out, "chasing", not giving the sheep any rest from constant pressure.

"Tame" sheep may cope better with the stress of constant exposure to dogs, some individual sheep seem to cope quite well, but as Vickie also mentioned, some "dogged" sheep are also showing a passive, helplessness response to high levels of stress...

Whenever we're working livestock, we should remember that the sheep ARE being stressed by this activity, and if we aren't training our dogs to do the daily NECESSARY work of stock-handling, we are doing it for fun... and we should be honest about our dogs and balance up our right to enjoy our dogs vs. the sheep right to a peaceful existance.

2) Understanding of "herding"- I have read a lot of stuff about people testing their dogs for the first time and seeing “great working ability”, excellent instincts, a “very talented dog”. Maybe that’s because they were told that, maybe its because they were surprised and excited that their dog showed interest, and exhibited some obvious herding behaviours.

I remember being THRILLED when my first “herding dog” initially balanced sheep to me- it was amazing and I was so proud. Did that mean he was exceptionally talented or even has “lots of ability”? No. There is a LOT more to a good working dog than you can see in round yard with trainer sheep… and its great that people can experience “herding”, but I worry that they may assume that’s what its all about.

A while back I was at a National working sheepdog event, watching some of Australia's top dogs run- and met someone I've done instinct test and "herding fun days" with. She was also there to spectate- but obviously saw things totally differently to me, when she commented that she tought all our "herding class" dogs were as good or better than the dogs competing. I nearly choked on my beer I guess I saw something totally different- undogged, runny sheep, arena course with obstacles, the intricacies of yard work (with the judging rules that make it not as simple as it looks)- and the dogs' work was something TOTALLY different to what our dogs had been doing in their large pen, with trained sheep.

This is not a criticism of people’s dogs- my first 2 “herding breed” dogs were, how can I say it, EXTREMELY average sheepdogs…. I was thrilled by them, but now I know some quality working-bred sheepdogs, I can see the enormous difference. Even my current WKelpie is a much better sheepdog than my other 2, and I am very proud of him, but he is a fairly average dog in “working-bred” company.

Yes, instructors usually try to say nice things about all dogs... partly because they want to reassure nervous handlers, and partly because the first time on sheep is not a great opportunity to assess dogs' futures- so it would be insensitive and silly to suggest that a dog wasn't worth continuing with during those initial stages.

3) Breeding based on “Instinct Tests”

Again, Vickie mentioned (but deleted) seeing photos on breeders’ websites of dogs “working” sheep at instinct tests etc- where they are chasing sheep, singling them and running on their shoulder as the sheep run for the fence… it makes me cringe, and wonder what on earth the breeder is thinking, putting those shots up! Yes, that stuff happens to young inexperienced dogs- but why advertise it? Is it lack of understanding of good work?

I also see comments that dogs have displayed “excellent working ability”, as demonstrated by their herding tests, or that breeders are breeding for working ability, based on these instinct tests. Again- this worries me because it shows lack of understanding of real working ability... and contributes to the public misunderstanding of instincts/ability- as evidenced by the recent "Breed Standards" threads...

If people want to learn about stock-work in a structured class with experienced knowledgeable trainers, I'm all for it (regardless of breed). That's what I'm doing! Its how new handlers develop an interest, and learn about the activity, and go on to working-bred dogs and trialling, or finding themselves a property and some stock...

But we need to remember that "herding" is much more than being keen and able to move training sheep round a small enclosure, and we are just touching the edge of the iceberg... and ALWAYS remember that we are causing stress (however mild) to living things for our own amusement.

I hope that came across OK- I'm not saying people shouldn't do "herding for fun"... I do, after all. I just want to people to think (like I am), and Vickie took her excellent thought-provoking posts home with her

If anyone managed to read that whole lot of waffle, I'm amazed

ETA:

JD wrote: "I'm glad the ethics of a new sport is raised early on"

Its not a new sport at all. Working sheep with dogs as a competition is a longstanding activity- one of the older "sports" around. I guess what we are talking about here is "new people", with non-working bred dogs in many cases, and for ANKC herding, a newly collected/modified set of rules (based on other existing competitions, but tailored for ANKC-bred dogs).

Edited December 19, 2005 by mjk05

[yogibear]

hi Mik

well i made it through your post and i sgree wholeheartedly with what you say. I have my concerns for the stoc too though fortunatel my little sheltie isnt going to throw too many sheep to the ground he can still stress them out and i am being very careful with this hence why im reading up on sheep behaviour lol

I havent been to a working sheep dog trial but have had the oppurtunity to see dogs working cattle and sheep in real life situations its hard work and it takes an amazing dog to do it I have not even thought of ANKC as being anything like real life working dogs those dogs and handlers are a breed of their own

Having said that i loved the workshop i went to the idea of working with my dog and the sheep in a different capacity to obedience and the like it was amazing It bought the country bred girl back to the surface lol

I will probaby never be in a position to own land but am enjoying learning about herding and about sheep and other livestock its made me do a lot of thinking about teaching animals in general and how best to work with them

[Vickie]

removed comments not relevant to this thread

Oh come on, Vickie!

You made some very interesting points, totally relevant to the topic, and things that were worth saying, even if people don't agree with them.

Its all good stuff- why on earth would you delete it?

Honestly...probably mostly b/c I'm just having a really bad day.

As you can tell, I'm VERY passionate about sheepdogs & herding & I will continue to be so. But the reality is, I don't have enough experience yet & I find it hard to put my thoughts down here without sounding judgemental, something I have no right to be. I have no desire to make any more enemies due to my inability to express myself properly or some of my extreme views and I don't want anyone to mistake my passion for something else.

MJK, you often have a great ability to say what I think, just better, and in a way that doesn't offend people. This forum doesn't really need my opinions on herding, there are plenty here with a lot more experience than me. I will be happy for a while to read & learn.

[KismetKat]

I must say when it comes to the welfare of sheep I am less concerned by tame sheep in a very controlled environment than I am by live sheep exports - especially when there is no good reason for it as we can do halal slaughtering here.

[Tassie]

mjk05 --

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more - especially since I'm lucky enough to be able to train on a working sheep farm, with a trainer with working bred dogs. As I've said before, I don't at the moment do ANKC stuff, because our concentration has been on farm work. Maybe one day - but then again, maybe not. For me I think there's more satisfaction in having my (not talented, show/performance bred) dog able to do a job of work - not as well as 'proper' talented working dogs, but without hassling the stock too much. (I was really pleased to find out that the year group of ewes Kirra and I have had the most to do with, had the highest lambing percentage on the place. That was quite a relief, to know that we hadn't done any harm.)

Glad you're back, Vickie. Hope your day is better today.

Barb

[Are You Serious Jo]

I should have qualified that the new sport part was for people who are new to sheep and trial through the ANKC, not the people who participate in trials with their everyday working dogs or the retired sheep farmers who do it.

[mjk05]

MJK, you often have a great ability to say what I think, just better, and in a way that doesn't offend people.

Vickie, that's what I usually think about your posts...

This forum doesn't really need my opinions on herding, there are plenty here with a lot more experience than me. I will be happy for a while to read & learn.

Actually, I think you'll find you have more experience than the vast majority of people on these "herding" threads... everything you've written so far has been well worth reading.

[sidoney]

And *I* think it's good that we *have* herding threads with people who are genuinely interested (even if they don't always agree) ... when I first joined this forum they were pretty sparse if existing at all. At this moment, 8/15 threads on the front page have herding in the subject line! Wow!

Edited December 20, 2005 by sidoney

[Coolibah Coolies]

Excatly fiona I was even thinking sometime soon we will need a herding forum in here