Breeds For Herding

[zayda_asher]

Or consider that they were working in the WRONG environment, or had stock that was unsuitable for what they were bred to do.

Yes, sorry, I wasn't very clear and what you have said so eloquently is more what I actually meant

Dan

[Sparty]

The only problem is Vickie that has pretty much wiped out 80-90% of the ANKC registered dogs, im not saying anything more of that or it will end up being another show/working BC fiasco.

I do agree some of the photos are of dogs chasing, even the vic herding site has a pic that looks like a dog charging up at a sheep cutting it off from the flock???

So no one who doesnt herd for a living or own property should herd as it would only be for fun or titles?? there has to be moderation in attitudes

[dogdayz]

Not sure if this all will make sense but it is just my thoughts watching this thread for the last 2 days.

I dont like to see a dog out of control among sheep or any stock, but having attended many of the VCA trials over the past 18months i have come to the conclusion several people can view a dog differently. I saw a dog fail its instinct test and i held my breath the whole way through expecting it to take a sheep down by the throat. Yet arround me many of the 'expreienced people' were suprised to see him fail as they were saying he looks like a wonderful dog. Seemed only me and judge had concerns.

I have also noticed increasing numbers of associate registered dogs often the second or third dog of people previously working main register purebreds. I am wondering where the whole ANKC herding is heading, and whether it is losing its original target. I certainly would not like to see it become a sport exclusive to the bc and kelpie - they already have alternatives available.

I agree the working bcs and kelpies have great instinct, which the other permitted breeds dont have, but i do believe there are dogs among those capable of doing well in the trials - i have seen other breeds take first place ahead of large kelpie and bc entries.

For me personally, i first tried my collie rough out at a workshop and she showed a bit of interest, so i tried her again with a trainer and that has developed. She will never be great but she does improve, and we make the effort to work sheep at least once a week. But yes i am guilty of telling her she is going to play with sheepies, but that is not intended to belittle the sport or imply she is just out for some running exercise.

I have thought it would be nice to have a 'real' herding dog, however having watched one of the two rescue pups i took to Davids last weekend, i now have serious doubts, as i find the idea of trying to control her level of drive very scary. I suspect that at some point we will see the result of other handlers getting high drive working line dogs for ANKC trials and it wont be all good. I think its important that when people handle trained dogs like Davids that they realise it is more the training than their handling skills that keep it all under control, and that they dont believe they can just go out and get a bc pup and it will all just fall into place.

As far as the non-herding breeds go, if its all done under guidance i have no issues with it. I know plenty of non-herding breeds living on property that help out. I believe that it can only be good for someone to see and understand their dogs behaviour around stock, and be able to develop a level of control.

Just my thoughts.

[cacharel]

I have also noticed increasing numbers of associate registered dogs often the second or third dog of people previously working main register purebreds. I am wondering where the whole ANKC herding is heading, and whether it is losing its original target. I certainly would not like to see it become a sport exclusive to the bc and kelpie - they already have alternatives available.

Yep - I have to agree with you there, we in Qld are already seeing that happen. Is it all about ribbons and winning trials or is about working with the instinct of your particular breed and PRESERVING & fostering the working style of individual breeds???

I agree the working bcs and kelpies have great instinct, which the other permitted breeds dont have, but i do believe there are dogs among those capable of doing well in the trials - i have seen other breeds take first place ahead of large kelpie and bc entries.

And this is where I will have to disagree . . ANKC herding with the 3 different courses is ALL about catering to all breeds and ALL working styles. Just because a dog doesn't go out naturally wide and gather or fetch sheep does not mean it has no instinct. It just has no instinct for that particular STYLE of working - and that is what Australians are so used to seeing . . so to the majority - the dog has no instinct. . . If my breed did that on their first introduction to stock - I would NOT be happy - because that is NOT what they were bred to do . . and THAT is what ANKC herding is all about . . catering to ALL herding breeds - hoping to preserve the working heritage of the breeds. Many if not most of the European working breeds still have great working / herding instinct - it is just not what Aussie working dog people are used to seeing . . and many just cannot deal with it either . .

FWIW in Qld and I think Aust we have the only dogs with passes on Advanced ANKC A course sheep, 1 is a Belgian Shepherd Groenendael with two passes, one a BSD Terv with 1 pass and the other a BC with 1 pass . . .

Edited December 17, 2005 by cacharel

[Rozzie]

As far as the non-herding breeds go, if its all done under guidance i have no issues with it. I know plenty of non-herding breeds living on property that help out. I believe that it can only be good for someone to see and understand their dogs behaviour around stock, and be able to develop a level of control.

I have a mini poodle who works the goats and sheep. He amazes visitors with his skills.

[herding_guy]

.....Personally I don't view herding as a "sport", something for a "bit of fun". 

I believe that herding ability should be bred for.  I know there will always be exceptions, but for the most part, I think that a herding breed, bred for herding stands the best possible chance of doing the job in a way most respectful of the stock.

The way I see it, for the most part, dogs who are not bred for herding instinct (and this includes herding breeds whose instincts have not been maintained) for the most part have 2 options:  chasing with instinct but little ability; or obedience on sheep. I don't consider either of these to be herding.  I also see a danger with the growing popularity that herding is currently undergoing, that perceptions of what herding is will change and I believe it already has.  When I look at photo's on peoples websites of their BCs "herding" with their head up & tail up & ramming into the shoulders of the sheep, I know that they have a different perception of herding to what I do, either that or their camera broke & they haven't taken a pic since their first outing.

I get upset watching dogs come & chase sheep for 12 months, I also get upset watching dogs do obedience exercises on sheep for 12 months.  Personally I think often the dogs are not really enjoyed it at all, they are often frustrated &/or miserable.  Without the instinct and the natural rewards that work provides, I wonder whether they wouldn't be much happier doing an activity that all dogs are capable of doing well.  I have no problem with people having a go, but hope that they will, like I did, keep learning, borrow dogs and wait until they are able to get a dog they can make progress with, should their current dog not work out.

Unfortunately I am not seeing this, for every person that gives up because it is not working out, there is also one who is determined, no matter what to prove that their dog can herd, often for the sake of a title.  I simply don't believe that all dogs have the same potential in herding and have a problem with increasing public perception that they have.  Just my opinion.

Vickie,

I respect your opinion and agree with you in many areas.

You obviously don't agree with ANKC or 3 sheep trialling either as these style of trials really don't simulate real work on a property at all they are just for fun / sport. I rather yard utility trials because these trials simulate real work with more sheep. I don't really care at all for ANKC or 3 sheep trials.

I also don't agree with breeding dogs for "looks" and "physical appearance" for showing (some people claim this is cruel and needless) but you dont see me jumping on the breeders community forums declaring how cruel it is. Each to there own. How respected do you think my opinion would be there. Although here your opinion is highly respected. Which says a lot about working dog people I think.

A sample of what has been learnt from one of my workshops is this....

I have thought it would be nice to have a 'real' herding dog, however having watched one of the two rescue pups i took to Davids last weekend, i now have serious doubts, as i find the idea of trying to control her level of drive very scary. I suspect that at some point we will see the result of other handlers getting high drive working line dogs for ANKC trials and it wont be all good. I think its important that when people handle trained dogs like Davids that they realise it is more the training than their handling skills that keep it all under control, and that they dont believe they can just go out and get a bc pup and it will all just fall into place.

this lady came to one of my herding workshops and now has a great appreciation for what work goes into training a herding dog. Thats what it's all about.

Out of all the people I have had come to a workshop only 3 are coming regularly to keep training and 2 of these were working bred dogs that are very talented.

I wouldn't waste someones time for 12 months that is ludicrous. The dog has talent / instinct or it doesn't. I don't do push button training, I work with instincts only.

I'll have to come up to Sydney soon and we can have this discussion over a cool drink...you are always welcome to come down here as well.

cheers,

David.

[fidelis Border Collies]

I have restored my orginal post because we seems to be back on track instead of the insults.

I believe in what i orginally posted and WILL STAND BY WHAT I HAVE SAID BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE IT.

Tracey Lamb

Fidelis Border Collies

[Hedds]

You also said this was not about the beginners herding day last Sunday and was not about Hagird. Yet your now restored original post, plainly shows 4 of your quotes to be about Hagrid, and the other is about a staffy x?

Surely you knew this thread would turn 'hot' immediately Tracey?

I am still trying to work out what sort of positve you thought could come to your sport from it?

[fidelis Border Collies]

I didn't see any point in changing my orginal post as stated without the quotes it wouldn't show why people have expressed their concerns. It also wasn't about getting positives, I wanted to make people think about what they are doing and what the implications of what is preceived by people weather what they preceived is wrong or not.

it was the concerns of the 15 odd people that have either emailed me, spoke to me, rang me or PM'd me so its not just me. I am just the one I guess brave enough or silly enough to post it. But if people feel a need to throw insults then i am just as happy to turn my computer off.

And yes i knew it would get heated but I would have thought we are all adult enough to talk about this without a need to start insulting people.

Tracey

[phatdex]

I read all th posts, before deleted also, and didnt really notice any insults.

[KismetKat]

I wonder if all this politics and stuff with the ANKC taking over herding is the reason the country show I used to go to (with the competitors being just local farmers and their farm dogs) stopped having the herding trial competitions.

??

[nickyp]

Tracey,

If original post had only said what was below a lot of the angst would have been avoided:

I have read this thread with concern the more people talk about it and pat each other on the back and tell each other what a great day is was etc more people read it then some one thinks oh sounds fun i will have a go. Someone will have a go in a non-controlled environment (Unlike the training day at Dave's place ) and who knows what will happen.

It just takes one situation for the likes of PETA to be involved and this sport can get closed down. We have rules in place for a reason and yes I know there is no stopping a Border Collie, a Kelpie, Cattle dog or even a Shepherd pulling a sheep down and killing it, and this is something that everyone has a responsibility to avoid. But these breeds are within the rules.

The pitbulls, Staffies and Dobermans are not and we have a responsibility to let people know that have these breeds that they are unfortunately not allowed to compete in ANKC Events.

I am a Fully licensed ANKC Judge from HIC to Advanced in All courses and if one of these dogs were presented to me to judge I would refuse to judge it because it is not exceptable as per the RULES

Anyone that takes on the responsibility of conducting trainings days and trials etc has the responbility to the stock and the sport to inform these people that sorry this breed can't compete.

Sorry to Rain on your parade but someone had to say something i have had so many private emails about this tread from concerned people i couldn't not say any thing.

If that was all I had read my response would have been 'fair enough, point taken' and it would have been no big deal as I don't plan to trial.

By quoting the thread about the workshop or "fun day", and particularly the bits about Hagrid, you made it all about that and not about ANKC rules and I think those of us who took part in the workshop were within our rights to respond.

And I'll say again - because I really believe this - anyone who thought from reading that thread that the workshop was in anyway presented as an ANKC activity doesn't read very well.

edited to make more sense

Edited December 17, 2005 by nickyp

[yogibear]

REading this thread is making me rethink whether i will bother with ankc herding i am interested in working with mu dog seeing what instinct he has and working with him to bring out the best he has to offer To me trialling in ANkc would be a benchmark something to aim for to see how training is going but if its this political why bother the only person who benefits if my dog gets a title is his breeder she gets to say one of her line has a herding title I already know my dog is great but i thought that it might be nice to try something new.

[yogibear]

Hi Dave

Ia gree having seen your dogs wwrok it gives people a lot of respect for what you do. There is so much more to training a dog to that level than just letting them go play sheepies

yb

[Sparty]

I wanted to make people think about what they are doing and what the implications of what is preceived by people weather what they preceived is wrong or not.

the problem with that comment Tracey is you can never controll what people think or their perceptions you will always have people going off 1/2 cocked and determined to believe the worst if we continue to cater for the lunatic fringe and the pessimists we will never get to do anything and may as well give up our dogs as they are germs machines and might likk our children *sigh*

yogi dont give up!! this is something you and conner enjoy!!! this is one of the reasons herding is struggling, people want to get involved are willing to help and get put off by politics and power stuggles, Our trial training is run by some women, who have decided the best time for training is at 5pm, never mind those who work, it is more convenient for them to do it then so only the unemployed or retired are able to go to this session, to hell with them im not letting that stop me doing my own training and im sure not letting this stop me enjoying herding, but unfortunately it will make me second think helping set up herding in our area or getting into organisation part of it with the VCA which needs more support

[yogibear]

Hi sparty

Yup i agree with you

when we meet up i can help you with any obedience stuff you need just ask.

yb

[sidoney]

Re dogs, sheep and livestock welfare. If the discussion starts at the livestock and not at the dogs, and the livestock welfare is paramount, then does it make a tremendous difference as to breed or working style? As has been pointed out, dogs of varying breeds will stress sheep (or not), and whether or not sheep and other livestock are handled properly rests largely on the handler taking a responsible attitude, and having suitable guidance. And being willing to discontinue with unsuitable dogs (and handlers, and trainers - I *have* seen unsuitable trainer/s). And must remember also the dog welfare. One would also discontinue with a dog that didn't want to do it.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if there is unacceptable stress in livestock or dog (note: what would one define as unacceptable? bound to have some stress), then something is happening that needs to be modified, whether the conditions, the training approach, the handler, the dog, the sheep (eg. unsuitable for dog, maybe either too heavy or light for dog's training stage) or something. And that stress levels might be a suitable indicator.

Edited December 17, 2005 by sidoney

[chezzyr]

#@$%^&*^ snobbery I reckon. Can not get away from it.

Would have NEVER thought it would occur in something like herding.

But anyway I can pretty much promise that I don't want to get into 'mainstream' herding now.

I may however go check out one of Dave's herding days, or even have a private lesson because I like what I have heard. Dave: I will make contact with you. I just didn't get in touch recently because my Smooth Collie was on heat (and only just recently finished).

[dogdayz]

I second what Sparty said - do not be put off - herding needs more people - and of the trials i have been to there are some great people around and it is a great day out.

[Sparty]

They were considering cancelling the lancefield saturday herding tests due to lack of support

I dont know if my post about that contributed to this thread, but there is about 5 people now interested in going and have expressed their interest, (all who have been training with sheep supervised) Hopefully they have not now been scared off!

Maybe in NSW & QLD there is a lot of support and it is going strong but the last trial i went to with all the tests & trials was over in 1/2 a day due to a small turn out.