Breeds For Herding

[ducatibruce]

Damn, I just got home & obviously missed out on heaps...I guess I'll never know what, as a lot of it was deleted.

I guess I will stand alone as someone who has concerns about people wanting to let their dogs "play" with sheep.

Surely it's better that the entry level stuff happen under experienced supervision, with appropriate precautions - if people are excluded based on their brand of dog don't you run the risk of them trying it without the necessary experience & safeguards & that would easily throw a bad light on the sport.

I read the thread about the event that spawned this one & thought - if it happens in Sydney I might take the dogs (pound mutts) along for a try.

The attractions were - the people running it seemed to know what they were doing, were taking reasonable precautions (muzzles, leads etc), and weren't anal about the brand of dog involved (this is something of a trad. working dog approach I believe - worry about the work rather than the look/breed of the worker).

Frankly, I wouldn't contemplate trying it without a muzzle (& lead)on my 30kg boofer cross even though he displays herdish tendancies - he also displays the terrier charge in and bite tendancy when ratting with our JRT(and that's an odd team to watch - though it developed entirely on its own).

Then again I think any newbie dog should be muzzled in that situation & I'm surprised to see that ANKC doesn't allow it (they should mandate it IMHO).

ETA - by try it I mean try with a view to doing it properly (or as properly as you can with a non ANKC mutt)

;^)#

Edited December 16, 2005 by ducatibruce

[yogibear]

when i first discovered obedience i had a crossbred we joined the ankc as associates and went on to ud In this time i tried agility flyball and some retriving training tracking then we didnt have herding.

When i dcided to get another dog i took all the things i loved into consideration and chose a gsp so i could do retriving trials as i loved it

One point poeple are missing you may own a non herding breed go along to some great workshops and fall in love with the sport then when getting another dog decide to get a herding breed because you know you want to go further

Without an oppurtunity to try these sports how will you knwo what you like and what you want to achieve.

I have been wantd to give herding a go for ages but was worried about my small dog getting a bad introduction to sheep if he gt a scare he would never herd

I new of only one person i woud trust to start us but was unale to get there then i found Daves workshop knowing he had worked with this person and speaking with him on several occasions i was confident that he would give onnor the right introduction

and i was right the workshop was run with great care to set the dogs up to succeed the trainers running the workshop had eyes in the backs of their heads and everyone left feeling confident and inspired. The workshop was not ANKC bt a couple of people there now plan to go onto ankc herding with our dogs so the workshop has also benefitted the sport greatly

yb

[herding_guy]

Damn, I just got home & obviously missed out on heaps...I guess I'll never know what, as a lot of it was deleted.

I guess I will stand alone as someone who has concerns about people wanting to let their dogs "play" with sheep.

NO Vickie, you are not alone, I agree.

That's why I give people a safe and controlled environment to learn about, stock, stock flow, canine instincts, natural training, obedience, leadership and to test their dog. If the dog doen't work for one reason or another they can try one of mine. Herding is all about moving stock from point A to point B in a quiet, safe and orderly non stressed manner.

No one is going to hurt my sheep!

This thread was started to highlight one herding association rule but it stirred a few pots out there.

Can I state - I take every dog on face value - IMO and experience there are good and bad in every breed due to environment or genetics. I have seen a poodle, pitbulls, labrador and even a cavalier herd stock in real situations. Some good and some bad but they got the job done. I am a qualified trainer / instructor who has been working with dogs and instincts for 20 years - I can read dogs. From the breeds I have denied due to predatory aggressiveness they have mostly been border collies, Aussie shepards and heelers. Therefore I'm not going to deny someone the oppurtunity because of the breed of their dog.

If anyone is going to give herding a try then please, please, please make sure you do it under the guidance and supervision of a qualified trainer / instructor and experienced herding trainer. You do not want to put your dog or other animals at risk. Herding can be dangerous too, especially in the real world with non habituated stock.

Cheers,

David.

[nickyp]

I was saddened to see this thread started and even more saddened to see the people who started a lot of it put their tails between their legs & run. If you feel strongly enough about something to post it here, you should feel strongly enough to leave it here. The deletions really only prove that you don't have the strength of your convictions and the information to defend your point of view. Maybe in future you'll think things through more carefully before you post.

I don't think it was getting personal & nasty. I think people making unsubstantiated assertions, such as 'locking jaws' and 'ANKC herding will be hurt by non-ANKC events' were being called on them and they couldn't take the heat.

In regard to 'playing with sheep' - the sheep at the workshop were watched for tiredness & stress and the breaks we took were as much, if not more, for the sheeps' benefit than the dogs'. I'm not interested in 'playing with sheep'. If my girl doesn't reduce her urge to bite, I'll stop taking her. I don't like watching her behave that way.

Yes, I enjoyed the day. Yes, I'm going back. I'm not doing this purely as just another game for my dogs to play. I could take them to the park & throw a ball around a lot more cheaply if that was all I wanted. I want to see what I can achieve working with their instincts. I want to see what sort of handler I can become. It's actually all part of a longer term plan I'm working on for myself, so there's nothing half arsed about my intentions and I resent the implication that there is just because I'm not working with the ANKC. One day I might, but it won't be for a long time - especially after the sentiments I've seen expressed here.

[yogibear]

Hi Nickyp

I feel the same way i wanted to try herding to learn to work with my dog in a different capacity if i felt my dog or the sheep were in dangre i would pull out of the idea.

I too am having second thoughts about ankc trialling after ready the sentiments here but then i wont be put off my a few peoples attitudes .

I als agree with David there are good and bad in all breeds Daid is very good at looking at a dog and handler and knowing what they can handle

[cacharel]

Muzzling and keeping dogs on leash until we know what they're likely to do seem good ideas (don't know why the ANKC won't allow muzzling, esp for the basic tests- seems better to prevent injuries than hope they won't happen).

From the ANKC herding rules :

A dog may participate in an Instinct Test weraing a muzzle at the discretion of the owner or judge.

Also from the rules for Instinct Test (base level ANKC)

The dog is bought in to the arena on long line approx 2-5 metres in length. At some point while on the line the dog must demonstrate a stop (down , sit or stand) and a recall before the line is dropped or removed. A dog that cannot be recalled shall not be let off line

[Sparty]

I think some times the phrase "play with sheep" used on DOL may have been misconstrued from the self depreciation of the handlers skill it meant?

I agree with Vickie that all training should be under supervision as you need the help for you as much as for the dog as well as for sheep protection. Some of the problems come from you not knowing what to do and confusing the dog and it getting frustrated.

My dream is to give yard trials a go, but i need training and experience and ANCK herding is a path I have chosen as we are eligable.

[mjk05]

From the ANKC herding rules :

A dog may participate in an Instinct Test weraing a muzzle at the discretion of the owner or judge.

My mistake- thanks for clarifying that. I thought they could, but one of ML's posts suggested they couldn't (rule change?)- of course, she's deleted it now

The HIC tests I've done have had the dog a fair way from the sheep, for the initial on lead section. I was thinking more of the option to have a long line trailing the dog. I know most dogs have done a fair bit of training before their HIC, but with the handler stress and new environment, its quite possible they may need extra safeguards. Just a thought.

[cacharel]

I was thinking more of the option to have a long line trailing the dog

The option to trail the lead is there within the rules. No where does it say that the lead MUST be removed - once giving either the judge or the handler that extra bit of control / safety factor.

[Sparty]

I think the other dog that did instinct with us had a long lead still attached.

[mjk05]

You're both right (as was ML)- my apologies. I've actually been back to READ the rules again and yes, you can drop the line in the HIC test (but not the HT), and dogs can be muzzled for the HIC test, but not the HT and above.

Sorry to be so confused (and too lazy to have gone back to reread the rules ). Now, should I delete all my above posts, so no-one can see my error (or understand what people are talking about)? No, think I'll be brave and tough it out!

It was also interesting to read the definitions of "acceptable" gripping... and the fact that it can be done "without purpose" in the HIC test, but not above.

A dog that grips abusively without purpose shall be immediately excused. Gripping or nipping is not acceptable if it is done without purpose for Herding Test level or higher Acceptable gripping must be appropriate to maintain control of difficult stock, may not be on the body, does not break the skin, and is done quickly without holding or shaking. It must be remembered that another dog may be able to control the same stock without gripping.

I was sort of under the impression that any grip/bite was immediate DQ, like in 3sheep trials- obviously I need to read the rules

[zayda_asher]

btw Dan - I believe Dread had to give up herding when they changed the rules to allow only traditional herding breeds - I guess they were worried about the sheep who, having read Dread's pedigree, realised they were being herded by a "pitbull"  might become extra stressed. Nothing to do with Dread regularly beating the trad. breeds.

Yes, Bruce, that's very true... Sad isn't it?

I guess I will stand alone as someone who has concerns about people wanting to let their dogs "play" with sheep.

I think we would all be concerned about people that might do something in a way that would injure the welfare of an animal... no one is suggesting that this should be acceptable.

In agility we ocassionally get people that put their dog's welfare at risk because they come and "play" without waiting for proper instruction etc. We are very firm with these people and if they do not like they can choose not to return... I'm sure most herding instructors would value the welfare of the dogs and the sheep in the same manner as we do the dogs' (and people) that come to our club...

No- I have concerns too. I just don't think there's much difference between people with totally show-bred dogs with distant herding histories, and people with "non-herding" breeds.

Thank you MJK05 I think you summed this up nicely

No one is going to hurt my sheep!

And that is the attitude I would expect most herding instructors would have!

Can I state - I take every dog on face value - IMO and experience there are good and bad in every breed due to environment or genetics. I have seen a poodle, pitbulls, labrador and even a cavalier herd stock in real situations. Some good and some bad but they got the job done. I am a qualified trainer / instructor who has been working with dogs and instincts for 20 years - I can read dogs. From the breeds I have denied due to predatory aggressiveness they have mostly been border collies, Aussie shepards and heelers. Therefore I'm not going to deny someone the oppurtunity because of the breed of their dog.

If anyone is going to give herding a try then please, please, please make sure you do it under the guidance and supervision of a qualified trainer / instructor and experienced herding trainer. You do not want to put your dog or other animals at risk. Herding can be dangerous too, especially in the real world with non habituated stock.

Thank you David for having such a no nonsense, sensible attitude!

Dan

Edit: because its too early for good S&G

Edited December 16, 2005 by zayda_asher

[Hedds]

Well, this thread has done its job, deleted posts or not.

I have heard from someone who was so excited about going to the next herding BEGINNERS day to see if their dog had any herding instinct, now they're not going to go.

Isnt it great when someone trying to promote a struggling sport, and maybe change peoples attitudes about the snobby way it has been run with in the past, gets slammed for doing so. Brick wall handy Dave?

I have been to two beginners days now. I will never do an official trial or test. I wouldnt give an organisation with such poor spokespeople my money. I shall, however, continue to have fun with my dog by paying to learn from someone who has the skill and experience needed to train me, rather than waste my time making up problems and 'whats ifs' where there are none.

Well done girls. Enjoy your 'elite' sport. Cheers.

[cacharel]

QUOTE (ducatibruce @ 17th Dec 2005 - 12:15 AM)

btw Dan - I believe Dread had to give up herding when they changed the rules to allow only traditional herding breeds - I guess they were worried about the sheep who, having read Dread's pedigree, realised they were being herded by a "pitbull"  might become extra stressed. Nothing to do with Dread regularly beating the trad. breeds.

Yes, Bruce, that's very true... Sad isn't it?

Actually - the rules were not changed as stated above - maybe it was the admins interpretation of 'mixed breeds ' that was changed. The ANKC Herding program has NEVER been open to all breeds.

From the very FIRST ANKC Herding Rules 1.1.2001

Section 9 Breeds eligible for Herding Test Program.

Australian Cattledog

Australian Kelpie

Australian Shepherd

Australian Stumpy Tail Cattledog

Bearded Collie

Belgium Shepherds [All Varieties]

Border Collie

Bouvier des Flanders

Briard

Collie Rough and Smooth

German Shepherd Dog

Finnish Lapphund

Norwegian Buhund breeds.

Old English Sheepdog

Polish Lowland Sheepdog

Puli

Pumi

Shetland Sheepdog

Swedish Vallhund

Welsh Corgi Cardigan

Welsh Corgi Pembroke

Other Herding Breeds

Bernese Mountain Dog

Canaan Dog

Keeshond

Kerry Blue Terrier

Norwegian Elkhound

Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier

Tibetan Terrier

MIXED BREEDS

mixed breeds may be accepted provided they are a mix or apparent mix of herding. These must be Associate Registered Dogs

[mjk05]

Cacharel, they are talking about AKC herding, in reference to the famous APBT Bandog Dread (he's pretty well-known- even I've heard of him, and I'm not a bull-breed person). I think he was one of the most multititled dogs ever- including at least one herding title.

ETA: I've just looked it up, and I think Dread actually competed in ASCA herding (although he did lots of AKC obedience, tracking etc under an ILP).

Quote from Diane Jessup's site:

Dread earned High Scoring Dog In Trial on Ducks at his last herding trial, and usual placed in the top four spots while competing on ducks and sheep. He earned both duck and sheep herding titles

ETA (again)- just reading Dread's owner's thoughts on herding- very interesting (sounds like she agrees with Vickie ):

HERDING: Because I titled Dread in duck and sheep herding and trialed him a time or two on cattle, as well as earning "Herding Certificates" (not really a training title) on several other pit bulls, people often call me requesting information on this activity. To be truthful, it is not something I would recommend, for two reasons. First, herding trials are not for the faint of heart. I have seen stock animals killed and injured during training and trialing. It is not uncommon for the AKC type "herding" dogs, such as German Shepherd, Rottweilers and Bouviers to attack and bite the animals. While I have great respect for the herding instructors I worked with, I am too "soft" to see animals injured for no real good reason. I have not seen this type of injury when people are training "real" (non-AKC) herding dogs such as real border collies, McNabs and kelpies. To each his own; herding remains a fascinating and worthy sport when done with real herding dogs, or "non-traditional" breeds that are under strict control.

There are photos of Dread working sheep and ducks-

Pitbull Activities

ETA more from Diane Jessup:

My own dog, Dread, injured a sheep, not during a trial, but in the parking lot of a trial when, a sheep, racing away in a panic with two other sheep, rounded a car and ran right into Dread at the same time I shouted, causing Dread to react to the "attack" with a firm nose grip. (The sheep survived and was fine). If you are bothered by the sight of frightened animals running about, this is not the sport for you. Second, pit bulls are BULL dogs. They are not bred to work sheep. To ask a bulldog to work sheep requires that the dog control thousands of years of genetic whispering that tells him to grip and hold. Dread and a couple other of my pit bulls did this for me, but it took a very special and close relationship, and it was, to be honest, putting them in a difficult situation. The only reason I did it was because in the late eighties we needed some good PR, and herding got some. I would not do it again. If you are interested in herding, I would recommend you stick with ducks, as they do not challenge the dog. Also, look for a trainer who is willing to work with your breed, and then don't be surprised as many people have, when the dog grips an animal. They are gripping dogs. If you have a very close relationship with your dog, and your dog is cool headed, you may be able to trial. Last I heard, the Australian Shepherd Club of America had banned "non traditional" breeds in a move designed to keep Dread (who was placing over their "Aussies") out of the trials. After he retired I didn't pay any attention to whether they opened it up again or not. There may be some club out there that allows nontraditional breeds to compete.

Edited December 16, 2005 by mjk05

[raz]

What moron posted that pitbulls have lockjaw? Oh dearie me. Some things never cease to amaze me.

And as for Dobes herding - ofcourse they can bloody herd. I regularly see a couple in action on a friend's property.

[cacharel]

Well it makes sense now that I know it was in the USA . . .

ETA: I've just looked it up, and I think Dread actually competed in ASCA herding (although he did lots of AKC obedience, tracking etc under an ILP).

I thought it would have had to have been either ASCA or AHBA. I am pretty sure AKC have always limited their program to AKC breeds with some working (herding) heritage.

[zayda_asher]

I have heard from someone who was so excited about going to the next herding BEGINNERS day to see if their dog had any herding instinct, now they're not going to go.

Too Sad

Second, pit bulls are BULL dogs. They are not bred to work sheep. To ask a bulldog to work sheep requires that the dog control thousands of years of genetic whispering that tells him to grip and hold.

Yes, that is the difference between working cattle and sheep... And why I would look at the individual animal and its temperament and suitability... As Diane points out its something that certainly needs to be accounted for in other breeds too:

I have seen stock animals killed and injured during training and trialing. It is not uncommon for the AKC type "herding" dogs, such as German Shepherd, Rottweilers and Bouviers to attack and bite the animals.

Sounds like some of those dogs shouldn't have been working...

Dan

EFS

Edited December 17, 2005 by zayda_asher

[cacharel]

QUOTE 

I have seen stock animals killed and injured during training and trialing. It is not uncommon for the AKC type "herding" dogs, such as German Shepherd, Rottweilers and Bouviers to attack and bite the animals.

Sounds like some of those dogs shouldn't have been working...

Or consider that they were working in the WRONG environment, or had stock that was unsuitable for what they were bred to do.

Bouvier - literal translation is Cattle , the Rottweiler is also a Cattle Dog. The GSD was NOT bred to work on 3 - 5 light sheep, that was never the intended purpose of the breed. The GSD is a TENDING breed, bred to work & contain large 200+ flocks of DOMESTICATED sheep.

This is where the understanding of different herding breed purposes is critical, not just from the trainer, but also from the owner of the dog. Trainers (and owners) put unrealistic expectations on dogs - many a trainer will turn away 'an aggressive' dog without fully taking the time to understand the breed purpose and that if they put that dog in diferent situation or on different stock the out come could be extremely different.

[Vickie]

removed comments not relevant to this thread

Edited December 19, 2005 by Vickie