Breeds For Herding

[eridorsmooths]

Aww Chezzyr it appears to be my fault, I posted then it hit the fan darl

[Sparty]

lol u scary eridorsmooths!!!!

[eridorsmooths]

I dont even think my post was that bad, I have been the reciever of worse on threads. I also recieved multiple PMs about it, apparently cause I dont do herding with my dogs I shouldnt have an opinion, I guess spending the first 16 years of my life on a sheep farm doesnt count at all

[Guest Tess32]

Seems that a lot of people only have guts on the PM's

Nat

[chezzyr]

I hardly get pm's from anyone, I must have scared everyone away LOL

Hey Eridor, didn't your pocket pup try herding recently? and showed a fair bit of potential?

[eridorsmooths]

She did Chezzyr and I am sure she is going to have a ball doing it, I am also thinking about seeing how Chelsea goes next time we have a begginers day.

Jacq

[mjk05]

Why are people deleting all their posts from a topic?

It just makes it difficult to follow the discussion.

If things have got nasty, I can understand deleting a post which may be ill-thought out or plain rude, but that doesn't seem the case here. The beauty of these boards is that people can discuss issues, disagree and talk things through, usually fairly politely and reasonably... If we all go round deleting everything we say because others disagree with it, these boards won't be very interesting. Have an opinion? Have the fortitude to stand by it! Change your opinion? (or even decide you're wrong ) Say so! Realise you've expressed things in a less-than-ideal way? Try again!

Come on guys, its a discussion board

[zayda_asher]

Deary, deary me... how disapointing to see such crappy breed mythology raise its ugly head in people who should know better... locking jaws indeed, that old chestnut??? I thought you had to have a very low IQ to believe that one these days...

Anyone know why the Bull Terriers have the BULL bit in their name??? Yep, points to those who got it: its because they were originally cattle, general farm and butchers dog's... they were used for working cattle and running jobs on the farms... Yep, some, unfortunately were bred for fighting at some stages, but that's certianly not the entire history of them. And many of those dogs that were bred for fighting worked on the farms during the day and went in the pits at night (farmers of the time thought it good sport and many breeds went in the pits: all the working terriers went in the pits, against rats, cats and other animals.). We see putting animals in a pit today as barbaric and, as a consequence, the majority of Bull and Terrier dogs are breed to be good family pets and don't have the drive those old dogs had, sure there are still a few morons out there, but most breeds have their morons.

Yes sheep are different to cows and yes their welfare, as that of any animal (including the human one) is important... but there are many individuals in the Bull breeds that do herding very sucessfully... I can think of at least 4 Bull terriers off the top of my head and Diane Jessup's American Pit Bull Terrier, Bandog Dread (the most titled champion in breed history) holds a Herding Title.... Did I mention Diane works as an ACO and has the welfare of animals as a part of her daily working life???

Dan

Edit: Spelling

Edited December 16, 2005 by zayda_asher

[ricey]

Why are people deleting all their posts from a topic?

It just makes it difficult to follow the discussion.

If things have got nasty, I can understand deleting a post which may be ill-thought out or plain rude, but that doesn't seem the case here. The beauty of these boards is that people can discuss issues, disagree and talk things through, usually fairly politely and reasonably... If we all go round deleting everything we say because others disagree with it, these boards won't be very interesting. Have an opinion? Have the fortitude to stand by it! Change your opinion? (or even decide you're wrong  ) Say so! Realise you've expressed things in a less-than-ideal way? Try again!

Come on guys, its a discussion board 

Hi mjk05

DOLers delete or edit their posts for a variety of reasons.

Let's look at some of those reasons:

1. they made a mistake in their original post; they should delete it and apologise.

2. they realise that their post was offensive; no need to delete, but they should apologise.

3. they said something really stupid that they are ashamed about (e.g. locking jaws); they should apologise.

4. they deliberately tried to incite people by stating inflammatory remarks. They should be warned by the moderators.

5. they tried to create as much trouble and division as they could by posting nasty ill-considered statements, then removed them before the moderators had a chance to review them. They should be banned.

I don't know, mjk05, there are any number of reasons why DOLers may delete or 'edit' their posts; some reasons are ethical, and some are not

It is difficult to decide on the ethics of a DOLers post if they have deleted it.

This is why I don't delete or edit my posts to change my meaning.

To do so would be cowardly and deceitful.

I hope this info helps.

Peter D

edited for spelling and grammar.

Edited December 16, 2005 by ricey

[Rusky]

Zayda_Asher

excellent informative post

[Echo]

If we're very concerned about public image, then I'd suggest the ANKC should be looking to REDUCE the list of breeds... In the public image, GSDs are "protection dogs", and many of the other breeds aren't associated with herding at all.

GSD's are NOT "protection dogs".

They were originally developed to herd sheep, and are still used extensively for this purpose in Germany.

Because of their adaptability and trainability, they are also used for many other purposes, and "protection" is just one of these.

There are already GSD's around the country with ANKC Herding titles.

Because of the "public perception" you speak of, surely this can only be a good thing for the breed. To be able to promote the dog in a different light, and widen narrow minded views.

GSD's are a true herding breed, even though it is not widely recognised here in Australia, and they should be given their chance to prove such.

I find your suggestion that the ANKC remove them from the list of allowable herding breeds, simply because of "public perception", ridiculous.

Julie

[ricey]

If we're very concerned about public image, then I'd suggest the ANKC should be looking to REDUCE the list of breeds... In the public image, GSDs are "protection dogs", and many of the other breeds aren't associated with herding at all.

GSD's are NOT "protection dogs".

They were originally developed to herd sheep, and are still used extensively for this purpose in Germany.

Because of their adaptability and trainability, they are also used for many other purposes, and "protection" is just one of these.

There are already GSD's around the country with ANKC Herding titles.

Because of the "public perception" you speak of, surely this can only be a good thing for the breed. To be able to promote the dog in a different light, and widen narrow minded views.

GSD's are a true herding breed, even though it is not widely recognised here in Australia, and they should be given their chance to prove such.

I find your suggestion that the ANKC remove them from the list of allowable herding breeds, simply because of "public perception", ridiculous.

Julie

echo, I agree with you totally that is why they are called 'german shepherd dogs.

Peter D

[mjk05]

I find your suggestion that the ANKC remove them from the list of allowable herding breeds, simply because of "public perception", ridiculous.

Julie, I'm not suggesting they be removed at all. As I've said, I think ALL breeds should be allowed to do herding, and yes, I know that GSDs were originally stockdogs. My OH lived in Europe for some years, and has seen GSDs working sheep in their traditional way. I've done ANKC herding tests with GSDs.

ML mentioned "protection" breeds- unfortunately she has deleted all her posts, so I can't reference them. So my comments no longer fit their original context.

But she and Fidelis were expressing concern that public perception about unorthodox breeds injuring sheep would cause ANKC herding to be closed down. I was just trying to point out that the public perception of GSDs is a "protection dog" breed, and that it's nonsensical to complain about public perception of "non-herding breeds" on sheep, when public perception probably doesn't think of Schnauzers, Kerry Blues, Elkhounds etc as "herding breeds".

Its very hard to follow a discussion when half the posts have been deleted... well done guys

[ducatibruce]

For those that asked "why try herding if you're not interested in progressing to titles":-

How do you know you'll enjoy something until you try it?

How do you know your dog will be any good until you try it?

How will your sport grow unless you have entry level events? Maybe non herding breeds can't compete at ANKC events - but maybe someone like slim1 will enjoy it so much they'll get an official herding breed dog & participate. This will grow your sport. Your rare future champions will have to come from the masses who participate in entry level events. Sports without entry level events for the masses whither & die.

For those that still believe "why try herding if you're not interested in progressing to titles", please start lobbying your state government to abolish school sports - very few children participating will end up competing at elite levels. Those govt's & schools are risking physical & psychological injury to children which might damage a sport I enjoy.

Me, I think it should be illegal to pick up a tennis racket unless you have a documented genealogy of Wimbledon champions going back 3 consecutive generations in your family history, on both mother's & father's side. But then again I don't like tennis

I don't think there's any danger of pitbulls taking over herding - it will be fairly difficult whilst muzzled & on lead (as required by Qld, NSW, Vic & WA legislation in force or pending).

btw Dan - I believe Dread had to give up herding when they changed the rules to allow only traditional herding breeds - I guess they were worried about the sheep who, having read Dread's pedigree, realised they were being herded by a "pitbull" might become extra stressed. Nothing to do with Dread regularly beating the trad. breeds.

To the people who organised the event(s) which spawned this thread - keep it up - you're ensuring your sports survival and growth.

;^)#

OED "sport -

1 fun or diversion, a pastime of an outdoor or athletic kind...

2 (of animal or child) gambol, play..."

[Leema]

Why, why, why do people take things back?

I wanted to read this THREAD, not random, disconnected comments due to half the posts being 'edited' or 'deleted'.

:p

[mjk05]

maybe someone like slim1 will enjoy it so much they'll get an official herding breed dog & participate. This will grow your sport

EXACTLY Which is something the WSDA people in my area are starting to realise.

Me, I think it should be illegal to pick up a tennis racket unless you have a documented genealogy of Wimbledon champions going back 3 consecutive generations in your family history, on both mother's & father's side.

I don't think there are a lot of "Wimbledon champions" in the backgrounds of the "ANKC herding crew" involved in this discussion. Which makes the whole thing even more silly.

What is "bred for herding" anyway?

My definition probably differs from others', I believe working ability needs to be actively (and CURRENTLY) bred for - but I'd prefer to leave as many opportunities open for people/dogs to prove their abilities as possible, regardless of background.

Edited December 16, 2005 by mjk05

[ricey]

Why, why, why do people take things back? 

I wanted to read this THREAD, not random, disconnected comments due to half the posts being 'edited' or 'deleted'.

    :p

yes, how nasty to delete or edit ones posts.

a bit scummy, a bit cowardly, a bit devious :p

Tell me that ain't true, you lot who have hit the delete button.

Care to share your reasons, or are you cowards?

Peter Duncan

[ducatibruce]

maybe someone like slim1 will enjoy it so much they'll get an official herding breed dog & participate. This will grow your sport

EXACTLY Which is something the WSDA people in my area are starting to realise.

<snip>

The converse situation (only herding breeds be allowed in herding) would be of course to invest in a (probably) high drive working line herding dog because you *might* enjoy herding & its the only way in. You try herding & absolutely hate it. Resume previous occupation of "pet owner" with that dog.

The result- a high drive dog, understimulated & bored becomes problem dog (barker, escape artist or whatever) damaging the breed's reputation. And probably ends up dumped at the pound because it's too much of a problem for Joe & Joan Average to handle.

Possibly more damaging to the sport than a "not a sheep dog" herding.

;^)#

[Vickie]

Damn, I just got home & obviously missed out on heaps...I guess I'll never know what, as a lot of it was deleted.

I guess I will stand alone as someone who has concerns about people wanting to let their dogs "play" with sheep.

[mjk05]

I guess I will stand alone as someone who has concerns about people wanting to let their dogs "play" with sheep.

No- I have concerns too. I just don't think there's much difference between people with totally show-bred dogs with distant herding histories, and people with "non-herding" breeds.

I'm concerned about sheep welfare too- I think all your points are very valid, Vickie- but I don't think the ANKC breed list protects sheep against harrassment. Plenty of those listed breeds are capable of causing major damage to livestock. Having been used on stock 100 years ago doesn't make a breed safer in reality or more legitimate in public opinion.

I don't have big issues with any breeds trying herding in controlled situations, with strict restrictions on what's acceptable. Muzzling and keeping dogs on leash until we know what they're likely to do seem good ideas (don't know why the ANKC won't allow muzzling, esp for the basic tests- seems better to prevent injuries than hope they won't happen).

And I don't see ML's distinction between ANKC-herding people doing herding as a "sport" or to prove their dogs' "working ability", and people doing it with pet dogs for "fun".

If we want to make herding entirely functional, there probably shouldn't be any sheepdog trials of any sort, and breeding "herding breeds" should be left to those who actually NEED the dogs for the work.

(that's not what I think should happen, it just seems the logical conclusion to that idea)