mjk05 Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 And therefore ANKC Herding needs to show that the well-being of the sheep is more important than the sport or anything else. as stressed before this is not about individuals or individual dogs its about how the public view different breeds and the reactions when things go wrong. I agree that public perceptions are important for stockdog trials (both WSDA and ANKC). It seems ironic that some WSDA people are "paranoid" about being associated with the ANKC herding events if "something bad" should hit the media... and now some ANKC people feel the same way about non-ANKC "pet dog" herding events. I also feel this is why its important that ANKC people are careful with the imagery and advertising they use for their dogs and events. I have seen some websites (breeders and clubs) which display photos of young/novice dogs chasing sheep, that make me cringe. Looking at these photos, and reading discussion about the dogs' "working ability" being tested via ANKC achievements, it would be easy to imagine that this is the standard of "work" conducted at ANKC events, which is not reassuring from an "animal welfare" perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezzyr Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 FWIW, shouldn't people be applauding and encouraging people to be having good clean fun with their dogs in a controlled atmosphere? I am sure the people that run these workshops know what they are doing and I have only ever read good feedback. I haven't been to one of these workshops myself but I know some of the people who have - sensible people who are enjoying their dogs! (although yeah there may be some rednecks with rabid dogs that I don't know about!) I DO have a herding breed. Now I don't know if she has any natural instinct there but if I wanted to find out I would attend one of these days because (shame on me) I am a suburbanite who doesn't have land or stock or access to either and so my opportunities would probably be very limited. Sometimes it really gets me when rules/associations/protocols/sanctions try to get in the way of people having some enjoyment in life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidelis Border Collies Posted December 16, 2005 Author Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) deleted Edited December 16, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickyp Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 Thank you for bring this up as this is my point. It was preceived by someone not there that is was an ANKC Event, the same as alot of other people that would have read it. I didn't know it wasn't an ANKC Event i had to ask someone if it was or not.THANK YOU IT WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET AT ALL ALONG And as I said, any perception that the workshop had any connection with the ANKC comes from poor reading, not from anything said in the thread. There is no way to control what people will imagine they see. What you seem to be saying is that people running, attending, having anything to do with non-ANKC herding activities are under some sort of obligation to shout that from the rooftops for fear that anything that goes wrong at their event will be wrongly associated with the ANKC. Why? I don't accept the basic argument fo this thread that I - as a non-ANKC person - shouldn't take my dog herding because someone else out there might do the wrong thing and the ANKC could be blamed for it. That's absurd. It's up to the ANKC to promote itself properly. To look after it's own interests. It's not up to the rest of us - non-members, many of whom the ANKC wouldn't want to know about - to do it's job for it. Frankly, one result of this thread is to ensure that, if either of my dogs do show a real aptitude for herding, there's no way I'll seek an ANKC title. The ANKC, by way of some of it's members, doesn't sound like an organisation I'd like to be associated with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickyp Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 oh ok I am sorry i thought the reason they were bred the way they are were was to make them excellent fighting dogs. But i'm most likely wrong their jaws are just like that to make it easier to eat Kibble etc. The jaw structure of a pitbull is no different from any other dog. It's a behavioural thing to bite and hold, rather than shake. Their jaws don't lock, they just don't like to let go. I'd thought knowledgable dog people had gotten past that particular myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedds Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) Its all about breeds. Its nothing but snobbery and raining on other peoples parades and havin a bitch at every available opertunity, thats why its gotten nasty. So typical. Why didnt this thread start after the last herding day that was posted about? It HAS to be because of the breeds represented that day. (IE: they were all working breeds) Why else would it be being raised now if its not about different breeds giving it a go? Edited December 16, 2005 by Hedds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) Edited Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eridorsmooths Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 Oh I so need Jdavis's piccie, buckle up folks this is gonna get nasty, but hey it seems to have already. Ok the day in question was not an official ANKC event, deal with it get over it. It all boils down to the fact that on that particular day the person running the clinic felt confident in the dog in questions ability to herd the sheep and not harm them, am I correct here. All I am seeing here is a bunch of working/herding breeders/owners who are I would say a bit miffed that a non working/herding breed is out there having a go at a what appears to be a fun clean healthy dog sport. Geez louise people's get over it, she has said she doesnt want to trial so therefore no ANKC issue, sheesh go find someone who doesnt look afte their dog and doesnt exercise it and have a bitch at them. I am so fed up with the attitudes on DOL most times its no wonder I make STD phone calls in the day if I have a question rather then ask on here, shit most people get eaten bloody alive. I thought the tail docking thread was bad but this is bloody stupid, stop being so god damn stuck up and snobby in your group and encourage people to do good things with their dogs. Oh and yes I am ready and able away. I dont give a flying shit what most of you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 It is sad that people WITH herding breeds AND VCA membership AND who are interested in herding and have put in training might be put off by this as it is struggling, the last event i went to had 2 dogs doing instinct test and there is not a huge amount of events on offer in Victoria some one was being pointed out for trying to learn herding and lessen the bite in her dog (an ACDX i think) what is wrong with that? she is training and trying to improve her control under supervision. it is a great experience and bonding thing to do with your dog, it wont be some peoples cup of tea but why shouldnt they try it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim1 Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 deleted because we can't all be adult and have to take thing personally and start attacking people I do believe we all behaved like adults. You accused me of attacking you personally.... my response for that would have been one of your own quotes buts since you've deleted them i cant respond. I dont understand why you would delete all yr responses. If you truly believe what you said then you should have stood by it and not deleted it. It is now unfair for all other doler's who will read this thread and try and make sense of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) a lot of hot air Edited December 16, 2005 by yogibear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eridorsmooths Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 I agree Slim and Yogi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloverfdch Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) I am so fed up with the attitudes on DOL most times its no wonder I make STD phone calls in the day if I have a question rather then ask on here, shit most people get eaten bloody alive. Ditto . I have mixed feelings on this, i agree that the sheeps welfare has to come first, but if a non traditional "Herding breed" wants to and can work in a calm and controlled situation then why not let them have a go? I have read through this whole thread and i am shocked and angered at some of the things i have read so far . Jen that was well said . Ohhh and go Hagrid you stud! Edited December 16, 2005 by cloverfdch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim1 Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 more editing & deleting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) MolassesLass wrote (but has now deleted): What I was trying to convey was that a farmer would be less concerned about gripping that is harshly penalised in ANKC herding Hmm, not sure what you base that on. The farmers (with a strong interest in good working dogs) I know are very concerned by gripping. No-one likes to see their sheep with holes in, or even unnecessarily stressed. Its bad stockmanship. Its one of the more common reasons for people "moving dogs on". In some cases (esp with farmers with less interest in training) the penalty is far greater than a few points lost in a fun event. But (as Vickie mentioned)- its not just about gripping. Some of the most dangerous behaviour I've seen has been sheep-chasing, singling one out and running it into a fence, that sort of stuff. MolassesLass also wrote (but deleted): And if the WSDA is all about ability and not breed then why are you concerned about these breeds competing in ANKC herding? Would not you be glad that there are so many breeds included and more interested in including the other breeds rather than excluding the currently included ones? Yep, I am!!! If you read my original post on here, I'm personally advocating ANY breed being able to do ANKC herding, if they are safe and well controlled. I'm just trying to point out that its ridiculous to believe its safer +/or more publically acceptable to have Elkhounds and Schnauzers doing ANKC herding, but not Rotties (or pitbulls, or labradors). MolassesLass wrote (and deleted): I can't speak for everyone but for me it is to test my dogs working ability, to nurture it and evalute it for the purposes of breeding for it. I certainly find it "fun" but for me, it is for far more than just "fun". But aren't you breeding because you want to, because you enjoy it? You could have picked another breed, and left the production of working dogs to people who have livestock. Not saying you should, I'm all for people breeding carefully and conscientiously, when there is a niche for their dogs - but isn't personal enjoyment a big part of why most ANKC people breed? And how much influence does ANKC herding actually have on breeding decisions? How many breeders will remove a dog from their breeding program because it fails a herding test? Most dogs seem to pass HIC/HT on their first attempt- and I believe almost any dog can get through to PT with enough training. How many breeders actually use the herding tests to make breeding decisions EFS (and missed words ) Editted to clarify that I was quoting MolassesLass, who subsequently deleted all her posts Edited December 16, 2005 by mjk05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 aarrggghhhh this is frustrating, but one thing should be said the "fun day" was a beginners herding, well supervised and people paid serious money for a day learning if their dogs had any instinct and if it was something to pursue. after all we all have to start somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 Well i had fun and im going back for another go in a couple of weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 me too YB, i miss the big days but go there for a few hours training when i can. the question is MJK if they would KEEP the dog that does well in herding if it did not do well in the show ring..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 Good on you! Hope you continue to enjoy yourselves (and your dogs), and its great that Dave and Geoff are providing this opportunity for you and your dogs to start learning about sheepdogs and their training in a safe, supervised environment after all we all have to start somewhere You're 100% right on that, Sparty (and I'm sure I've heard that said somewhere before...). Most of us here are just starting, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezzyr Posted December 16, 2005 Share Posted December 16, 2005 OK, spill people. I go out chrissy shopping and come back to see half the posts deleted. Must have got nice and colourful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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