Breeds For Herding

[Guest Tess32]

There are groups against everything ML - the chances of ANKC herding being shut down because a dog that isn't even allowed to herd has an incident is pretty low.

Glad to hear you can speak with such authority on the subject. I find it strange that those in official capacities hold such a differing view, perhaps you will tell them your source for such an assertion.

Good day.

Thanks - Paranoia isn't my strong suit I guess

Nat

[yogibear]

wow where did this come from jealousy lol

We used to have the same argument in retrieveing and yes why wouldnt epople want to put their ability as trainers to the test with non specific breeds by whippet was trained to retriving trial level why because i could my shelti will also be trained to novice retriving because we can

Ive watched some herding trials and to be honest the 'pitbull' at the worshop had ten times the control and manners than some of the 'herding dogs' ive seen

and in Scott lithgows book where he is talking about herding he mentions adding a bit of bull terrier to herding dogs so having a bit of staffy shouldnt be an issue how about judging epople and their dogs on their ability and achivements rather than getting all wound up coz a dog has a bit of staffy in it shame oh shame if that dog goes onto win a herding ttest wouldtn that look bad for the 'herding breeds'

[yogibear]

Funny i was thinking what a lovely relaxed and friendly bunch herding people were none of the politics of other sports

silly naive me

[superminty]

Just want to clear up something. I decided to enter my dog in an instinct test after a number of sessions with sheep on the suggestion of an experienced trialler. The fun days run by Herding_Guy are in no way ANKC related, endorsed or advertised as such. For those of us that own a herding breed or, in my case, an apparent mix (could be staffy, could be heeler, could be kelpie, who knows?) that displays some sort of talent for the sport, the option to test our dogs in an official (ie. ANKC) manner is just that, an option. For most of those that attend the fun days, the thought of trialing never crosses their minds. I would like to trial because I have had success in obedience and will be continuing on with both obedience and agility trialling in the new year. I enjoy trialling, I like to test my dog's capabilites and expand upon them. My dog loves the herding we have done. With luck, she will get the opportunity to show what she has learnt.

This thread has digressed a little, as threads tend to do. It is a discussion on the suitability and indeed eligiblity of certain breeds in relation to trialling in ANKC events. With regards to myself, it seems that our fate is in the hands of the judge on the day. I do love a challenge and believe I have risen to it with the progress my little Minty has made over the past months. That is why I would like her to be given a chance, however, it is my choice to attempt to trial and I know most of the people that attend the fun days just want something different to do with their dogs. I don't see why that should be a problem.

[yogibear]

WEll said Hannah

[MolassesLass]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[fidelis Border Collies]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies

[Guest Tess32]

C'mon ML - there are consequences to everything. You have to weigh up if they are realistic or not. Accidents can happen in any sport - this is in a CONTROLLED area with an EXPERIENCED trainer. The dogs have muzzles! They are in a small pen until tested!

But apparently that makes people responsible for random people who visit these threads and run off to try their pitbull on sheep?

If the people who are so concerned have to PM someone who didn't even go - then perhaps they should just simply use common sense and email David with their concerns or speak for themselves.

Nat

[nickyp]

*sigh* These two comments sum up why those who care about ANKC herding (and sheep welfare) are concerned. Not only an admission that no thought to the consequences of ones actions are happening but that it is in fact "paranoia" to consider ALL (good and bad) the consequences of a situation/action rather than just how "cool" and "fun" it could be.

And this comment shows that those who are so 'concerned' weren't there, don't know the people or the dogs involved and are being incredibly condescending to the rest of us.

Hagrid (the big nasty pitbull) worked at first in a muzzle, then on lead. He only worked off lead & unmuzzled at David's insistence. David was sure he would be OK and that anything that happened could be managed.

None of us who have talked about why we want to take part in herding have said we are doing it just because it's "cool" or "fun". We've said we want to do herding with our dogs to further their training and improve our skills as handlers. Because our dogs are not ANKC suitable or we are not interested in pursuing titles that's not good enough for you.

If any of you come down south from Queensland or NSW, stop off as you leave Melbourne Airport and take the time to meet David & Geoff & see what they're about. You'll be very pleasantly surprised.

[fidelis Border Collies]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies

[MolassesLass]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[slim1]

sigh* These two comments sum up why those who care about ANKC herding (and sheep welfare) are concerned

If thats the case.... wouldnt it best that there is no sheep herding that way the sheep wont be stressed by any breed of dog

I have even seen a sheep pulled down at a 3 sheep trial by yes a Border Collie and i have never seen men run so fast as to get there to get the dog off the sheep this dog was never used on stock again. I could just see this senerio with one of the breeds that lock their jaws , THEY DON'T LET GO. this is the only problem i have with these breeds.

then this quote

as stressed before this is not about individuals or individual dogs its about how the public view .

I think in your eyes its very much about the breed. You've totally contradicted yourself. At least develop some balls and admit it

So the sheeps welfare is ok when a border collie attacks the sheep but not with a locking jaw pitbull?

Pitbull's bite and hold.... no thrashing....which means less damage to the sheep unlike other dogs that maul

[nickyp]

ONCE AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUAL DOGS OR DAVE. As far as I am concerned the fun day went well. Hagrid looks like he is doing very well and from Daves other posts I know he knows what he is doing. this is not the issue.

The tread was brought up to make people aware if they are running ANKC events or even if the events are presived to be ANKC Events that the rules are followed. Although from what people have said this event was not an ANKC Event it has been presived as one because of references to Intinct tests etc etc.

I think if you wanted the thread not be about the workshop run down here then you shouldn't have quoted from the thread about it so liberally. There's been so many references to it and the dogs (particularly Hagrid) at it that it's very difficult to see this thread as being about anything else.

The ANKC is only mentioned twice by name in the thread about the workshop and both those times by someone who was not there. None of the people who attended were under any illusion about any association with the ANKC. Any perceived connection would have arisen from poor reading of the thread.

where did any one say Hagrid was a nasty Pitbull this is why these threads turn nasty.

That's my (admittedly poor) attempt at sarcasm. When posting from work I have to be quick and that makes it difficult to refine my expression. My point was simply that any possible consequences of Hagrid coming into contact with sheep were thought of and addressed up front. I think Marina is great in that she's aware of and prepared to deal with the baggage that can go with owning a pitbull.

Those who are concerned about people just letting their dogs loose on sheep without proper training and supervision and any affect this might have on the ANKC herding should encourage the ANKC to be more proactive about promoting their discipline. It's up to the ANKC to differentiate themselves from everything else and make themselves a viable alternative.

[slim1]

Nickyp

[Darkrai]

Im disapointed Poodles aren't there

As with

Koolies (coolies how ever you want to spell it )

Afghans can herd - See how fast the sheep can run then!!!!

Kommador (sp)

Bermasco (not sure if there are any in australia?)

Central Asian Shepherd (i think that is what its called???)

Thank you for reading my

Dripple

[mjk05]

MolassesLass wrote:

I believe the pluralisation gives the interpretation that all breeds in the mix are herding ones

That's not the way its interpreted in at least one state, so I don't think that is a standard interpretation.

And therefore ANKC Herding needs to show that the well-being of the sheep is more important than the sport or anything else.

The breed wouldn't matter to the people who would move to close down herding (and their aim would be the public face of competition herding - the ANKC) but in the interests of being able to keep our sport it is imperitive that breeds that are not traditionally bred for herding (and therefore basically impossible to have ANY true herding instinct)

Sorry, I just don't see how Norwegian Elkhounds have more claim to being "herding dogs" than, say, Boxers, or Giant Schnauzers vs. Rottweilers. I've read breed histories for all of them, and the herding link seems distant and somewhat tenuous for all.

I'd also question that more than a handful of the breeds on that list have been "bred for herding" in living history.

If we're very concerned about public image, then I'd suggest the ANKC should be looking to REDUCE the list of breeds... In the public image, GSDs are "protection dogs", and many of the other breeds aren't associated with herding at all.

In fact, dogs in ANKC competition are "marked" more harshly for gripping than actual stock dogs would be due to this.

Is that right? Do you mean ANKC exhibits get marked harder than WSDA entries?

Vickie wrote:

I see plenty of herding breeds who have been chasing sheep around for 12 months now, sometimes biting & ramming them into fences.

Me too. I've heard of some ANKC "traditional herding breeds" really giving sheep a hard time, in a way that has made observers walk away upset. But I've also seen some "non-herding breeds" being gentle and quiet on sheep... I know which ones my OH would allow near his sheep. Maybe what we need is much tighter restrictions on behaviour at herding tests- so the chasing etc seen at instinct tests isn't allowed?

Cacharel wrote:

But don't you think that that attitude is an offshoot of the '3 sheep trialling' culture??

No, not really. If you can do a 3sheep course with your dog (whatever breed), I think most WSDA groups would welcome you. They don't restrict by breed.

Although, why would anyone want to (properly) do herding with a non-herding breed? What does it achieve, what does it mean? Do all the people who want to play-ANKC herd with their Poodles also want to play-ANKC gundog retrieving or play-ANKC earthdogging?

Why does anyone without livestock want to do it? Seems to me everyone else is doing it "for fun" .

[phatdex]

um, firstly lock jaw? wtf?

Secondly, I think slim1 just wanted something fun to do with her dog, not to do actual trials etc so i dont see what the fuss is about. Just like it would be fun to do lure coursing, weight pulling, whatever!

Secondly, it would be much easier to stop, and less damaging to the sheep to have a dog that holds on, rather than continually biting.

Because an owner can run over and get the dog off with minimal damage. A dog that keeps biting and letting go and re biting will do far more damage in a limited amount of time. (Ie in the time it takes for the owner to run over).

Whereas the pit bull has simply made puncture marks, one twist of the collar and he is off.

Left to their own devices, the pit bull would be more dangerous, but with people there, they are the easiest dog to get off.

[fidelis Border Collies]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies

[slim1]

I have said to someone in a private post that my concern it not with Marina and Hagrid or Hannah and her Saffie/Keplie cross if anything these are the sort of people that will do the right thing.

You know nothing about me or Hagrid so pls refrain from making statements about what sort of person you think i am

[fidelis Border Collies]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies