Breeds For Herding

[cacharel]

Heck I *have* a herding breed but they aren't border collies or kelpies and so....

Of course there are friendly people in herding...but even at one of the talks I have gone to at a pet expo day, the person even said "other herding breeds like rough collies still herd, but if you want to really get into herding.....".

But don't you think that that attitude is an offshoot of the '3 sheep trialling' culture?? One of the reasons for the ANKC program is that it has 3 different courses available for the various working styles of the herding breeds. Not all breeds work the same - and nor should they. The variety of herding breeds developed in many different countries around the world have been bred for specific working purposes and not many (especially the European herding breeds) have been bred for a typical 3 sheep trialling course.

I have an upright very loose eyed breed that works very differently to a Border Collie or Kelpie or any of the other readily 'recognised working breeds' and to be honest, I would be horrified if my dog worked like a BC or a Kelpie (and no, I am NOT slamming any of the other breeds), just trying to point out that there are many different working styles out there. Both fetching/gathering and boundary dogs are selected for their strong prey drive, since a strong prey drive is fundamental to maintaining a sustained high drive in the dog while working sheep. How the dog uses its natural prey drive in working sheep illustrates the fundamental difference between the fetching/gathering style and and other working styles. Neither one is right or wrong - just different methods of getting the job done. Also finding trainers who understand how upright dogs work is extremely important for both yourself and your dog.

So don't be put off if you have a herding breed that isn't the norm

Anne

[slim1]

I have a few comments to make especially as my dog has been named a few times in the quotes.

No offence to anyone but this is how I feel after reading some of the posts.

I can understand the concern of DOL'ers on this forum having a "killer dog" out in the paddock tormenting the sheep…. Bringing the whole herding world in disrepute.

Lets remove that image & replace it with this one

1. Controlled environment

2. Skilled trainer / herder

3. Dog savvy sheep

4. Muzzle's if required.

5. Responsible owners

Anyone that takes on the responsibility of conducting trainings days and trials etc has the responbility to the stock and the sport to inform these people that sorry this breed can't compete

this isnt about ANKC herding but another method of training

Not sure if these people have read the rules about what breeds are allowed to participate in ANKC herding events

Dont need to read the rules as i will never be able to participate in ANKC herding events.

ANKC Herding is a very new sport and it just takes something like one of these breeds which are known for not letting go to grab a sheep pull it down and at the worse kill it, then where will we be.

The pitbull, staffie breeds are known for their grip and the powers to hold on

Yes they are.... especially the lock jaw .... sounds very much like BSL B*S* to me lumping all the dogs together. I can only speak of my own dog who i would never put in the situation willingly to hurt himself or another animal. It comes down to responsible ownership and knowing your dogs limits. I know Herding_Guy and trust him completely when it comes to Hagrid. I would never enter a situation that could put my breed at risk.

The pitbulls, Staffies and Dobermans are not and we have a responsibility to let people know that have these breeds that they are unfortunately not allowed to compete in ANKC Events

I think most ppl on this forum would know that. Herding for me isn’t about ANKC events but rather another form of training to add onto his regime.

Someone will have a go in a non-controlled environment (Unlike the training day at Dave's place ) and who knows what will happen.

That's a valid point. I guess its worth reminding people that this isn't something you should just "have a go" at without experienced supervision.

Foolish are the dog owners who would put their pooches & sheep at risk

As you say it would be Fun to see your dog work yes it would but at what risk that is all I am saying. Go train your dog make sure she is 100% safe around stock know before you take her in all will be safe this is what most people should be doing not just hope for the best

Dont you need some form of stock to be able to do this?

To get most dogs working properly it takes a lot of work and if people think they can do no work and just give it a go you are not doing your dog or the sport justice. You wouldn’t go into a agility or Obedience ring with no work would you same applies to Herding.

My thoughts exactly.

Sorry to Rain on your parade but someone had to say something i have had so many private emails about this tread from concerned people i couldn't not say any thing

An option could have been rather than posting here.... PM Herding_Guy with all the private emails regarding your concerns and have him put your mind at ease.

because there IS snobbiness associated with what breed

thats the feeling im getting

edited to add this quote

A Staffie/Kelpie cross is not a mix of two apparent herding breeds and a Pitbull is diffinetly not

Do you have a problem with the breed?

Marina

Lover of all boofheads

Edited December 16, 2005 by slim1

[MolassesLass]

Edited

Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[Guest Tess32]

[QU

But don't you think that that attitude is an offshoot of the '3 sheep trialling' culture??

I don't know....I don't know enough about ANKC herding.

Personally I did it because I wanted to see if my dog had any natural ability and whether it would help me learn about him, how he reacts under such a huge distraction etc.

I learnt a lot, in a friendly, supportive atmosphere. I had the pleasure of watching my dog get into the large paddock and change his attitude from the small pens. To the real working people - this is nothing, and his very basic instincts that made him suddenly start gathering sheep is really nothing special compared to the amazing working ability of some dogs.

However I didn't actually think it was about ANKC herding? I never went along under the assumption it was associated?

Nat

[Vickie]

removed comments not relevant to this thread

Edited December 19, 2005 by Vickie

[slim1]

If Joe Farmer up the road wants to make some money by running herding "fun-days" then they should make it clear it is nothing to do with the ANKC, not held under the rules of the ANKC and when things go to crap, it's him and not the ANKC who suffers the consequences.

I have yet to read anywhere any mention about ANKC on the "fun days"

Can someone please tell me where i can find it

[MolassesLass]

Edited

Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[slim1]

Here and here for starters.

The use of the term "sport" would indicate that the training is for either ANKC Herding or 3-sheep trialling. It isn't made clear which (if any) so both would no doubt be blamed

That would only mean something to those who know the lingo. As for me... it didnt even register

[Guest Tess32]

Sport does not equal = ANKC in most people's minds. I would call agility "sport" even if I did it in the backyard with a bucket! It's because it is an activity.

That's just semantics.

Nat

[MolassesLass]

Edited

Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[noisymina]

Although, why would anyone want to (properly) do herding with a non-herding breed? What does it achieve, what does it mean?

I would do a herding workshop with my Dobe if one came up near here.

Why? Because she already herds. She's herded ducks and just now brought the horse up for me.

What does it achieve - It saves me a bloody long walk

What does it mean? It saves me a bloody long walk.

What is wrong with trying to learn the finer points and wanting to train her to work with a bit more accuracy/finesse?

She could use the stimulation and I would learn somethimg.

That doesn't mean we want/need ribbons or trophies or a judgemental bunch of beaureaucrats dictating what we can or can't do - specially since it is happeneing anyway.

[Guest Tess32]

This is getting into strange territory.

No one has said it's ANKC sanctioned, no one thought it was...but on the off chance a dog (despite being in a controlled area with an experienced person) killed a sheep then everyone would think it's ANKC herding?

ANKC doesn't "own" herding, therefore there is no reason for anyone to think that ever event related to herding will be ANKC related.

Someone said:

Someone will have a go in a non-controlled environment (Unlike the training day at Dave's place ) and who knows what will happen.

Why would every non-ANKC event be responsible for instigating lots of "lets try herding!" moments at an uncontrolled place? It's just as likely someone sees an ANKC herding event, decides "that's cool" and tries their German Shepherd on some sheep who then kills one of the sheep. That could just as easily happen, considering the huge amount of people who DO own stock. Sheep aren't exactly rare.

I understand Vicki's points - I don't really see the point of the ANKC complaint.

Nat

[fidelis Border Collies]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies

[slim1]

if it got out that a dog (particularly a 'fighting' breed) killed a sheep at that training day

why would a fighting breed kill sheep? You presume because its a fighting breed its natural instincts are to kill. I think not. Are there not working dogs out there that are shot when they kill stock?

I have a problem with breeds bred with the lock jaws that is well known for they ability to not let go.

HELLO .... LOCK JAW??? I think you need to spend some time on the EDBA site re: myths

You say you are not interested in ANKC but actions created thru people reading these threads could close this sport down and that is what i am objecting to. OR real concerned about

Touche

Comments like yours "lock jaw" just fuels BSL and aids eradication of the pitbulls all together

I am not interested in ANKC because i have no choice due to the breed i own.

so are you saying you are not that serious about herding as a sport or activity you just want to give your dog some thing different to add to his regime

I have every intention to continue herding.... just dont think it was anyones business to know

[MolassesLass]

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Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[Guest Tess32]

They may, as they are not known for being the brightest sparks - but my point is that if someone chooses to go off half cocked with their dog and try them on stock with no one experienced around, then they are responsible, not a couple of pictures of a non herding breed on a dog forum.

It would be like, for example - K9 Force or others never mentioning E Collars or prong collars on the chance that some idiot goes and buys one and zaps his dog into oblivion.

People doing something responsibly, in a controlled environment with an experienced trainer, cannot be held responsible for giving "ideas" to irresponsible owners who go off by themselves.

If a pitbull or rottie or any dog of that kind DID kill a sheep then the media would probably focus on the "aggressive dog" issue anyway, as I doubt ANKC herding would even bother to rate a mention.

Nat

[MolassesLass]

Edited

Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[Guest Tess32]

There are groups against everything ML - the chances of ANKC herding being shut down because a dog that isn't even allowed to herd has an incident is pretty low.

But you know...agree to disagree and all that.

Nat

[MolassesLass]

Edited

Edited December 16, 2005 by molasseslass

[slim1]

You know what the media does with stories of these breeds and in this example it wouldn't only be another reason to exterminate the fighting breed but ammunition to have herding competitions banned

I would rather not be negative and focus on the "what if"

And yes, I do believe a breed traditionally bred for fighting or a mauling-type guarding breed or a line bred for bite-work will be more likely to have the instinct to hold and take-down a sheep and more likely to kill that sheep than a breed traditionally bred for herding

Hagrid was bred to fight in the pits with another dog. He is not a guarding breed and for bite work.. pfff i cant even get him to play tug.

My focus is getting him to work in prey drive. Him knowing all his satisfaction comes from me and to ignore all his surroundings including sheep