Breeds For Herding

[fidelis Border Collies]

I have reinstated my orginal post as i can see we are getting back on track and not getting bogged down with insults. I wont try and justify why i posted this thread because it doesn't matter what i write some people will think i am targetting them so i wont bother. I posted this because it is important to me and i will stand by what i have said.

I have started a new thread as i don't want this to get lost in the other threads but i am very concerned about where this is going.

I have read some of the posts some various people and I am very concerned in regards to

Hello there, I'm new to this thread. I'm doing the instinct test at Lancefield on Friday 30th with my staffy cross kelpie, got one more practice session with Dave before then. Trying to maximise the herding instinct and minimise the biting one! Anyone going Friday?

Hagrid & myself had a wonderful day. A BIG thankyou to Dave & Jeff & all involved. Cant forget the wonderful dogs .... Tuppy, Rosie & Scout. For a novice like myself it was truly amazing watching them work.

Also thankyou everyone there for the encouragement that Hagrid & myself received. He maybe a pitbull, but all you wonderful ppl there today saw him as a dog first.

Dave a special big thankyou for allowing us to join in.

Slim and Hagrid - That Pitbull is a Kelpie in disguise - I'm sure he is Scouts long lost brother. You guys were fantastic. Slim keep up the good work with Hagrid he is a dog to be admired. Give Hagrid a sheeps ear to lick tonight.

Hagrid next. The kelpie in pitbull clothing.......

Not sure if these people have read the rules about what breeds are allowed to participate in ANKC herding events

Breeds eligible for Herding Program.

Australian Cattledog

Australian Kelpie

Australian Shepherd

Australian Stumpy Tail Cattledog

Bearded Collie

Belgium Shepherds [All Varieties]

Border Collie

Bouvier des Flanders

Briard

Collie Rough and Smooth

German Shepherd Dog

Finnish Lapphund

Norwegian Buhund

Old English Sheepdog

Polish Lowland Sheepdog

Puli

Pumi

Shetland Sheepdog

Swedish Vallhund

Welsh Corgi Cardigan

Welsh Corgi Pembroke

Other Herding Breeds

Bernese Mountain Dog

Canaan Dog

Keeshond

Kerry Blue Terrier

Norwegian Elkhound

Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier

Tibetan Terrier

Standard Schnauzer

Giant Schnauzer

MIXED BREEDS mixed breeds may be accepted provided they are a mix or apparent mix of herding breeds. These must be Associate Registered Dogs effective Jan 2005 55 Rules & Regulations for Herding

Please note what it says about Mixed breeds

TWO APPARENT MIX OF HERDING BREEDS

A Staffie/Kelpie cross is not a mix of two apparent herding breeds and a Pitbull is diffinetly not.

And I am not saying these particular dogs i see in these posts are a danger to the stock etc etc, but rules are in place for a reason.

ANKC Herding is a very new sport and it just takes something like one of these breeds which are known for not letting go to grab a sheep pull it down and at the worse kill it, then where will we be.

The pitbull, staffie breeds are known for their grip and the powers to hold on.

I have read this thread with concern the more people talk about it and pat each other on the back and tell each other what a great day is was etc more people read it then some one thinks oh sounds fun i will have a go. Someone will have a go in a non-controlled environment (Unlike the training day at Dave's place ) and who knows what will happen.

It just takes one situation for the likes of PETA to be involved and this sport can get closed down. We have rules in place for a reason and yes I know there is no stopping a Border Collie, a Kelpie, Cattle dog or even a Shepherd pulling a sheep down and killing it, and this is something that everyone has a responsibility to avoid. But these breeds are within the rules.

The pitbulls, Staffies and Dobermans are not and we have a responsibility to let people know that have these breeds that they are unfortunately not allowed to compete in ANKC Events.

I am a Fully licensed ANKC Judge from HIC to Advanced in All courses and if one of these dogs were presented to me to judge I would refuse to judge it because it is not exceptable as per the RULES

Anyone that takes on the responsibility of conducting trainings days and trials etc has the responbility to the stock and the sport to inform these people that sorry this breed can't compete.

Sorry to Rain on your parade but someone had to say something i have had so many private emails about this tread from concerned people i couldn't not say any thing.

Tracey Lamb

Edited December 17, 2005 by fidelis Border Collies

[superminty]

I'm new to this herding thing so I don't know all the rules associated with it. I've entered my dog in the instinct test at the recommendation of the instructor training me (and her) on sheep. She is associate registered as her parentage is unknown. What I list her breeding as is only what I, with my limited experience, think she could be. Having had some experience on sheep (again, limited), I can only conclude that she has an element of kelpie in her as she shows a definite interest and instinct for herding.

She is well trained and I am confident in my control over her. I understand that in the instinct test they start off on a long line? Will she be disqualified because she may look like she has staffy in her? Or should she be given a go (at the judge's discretion) when I am confident she will heed my commands in the event that she does try to grab? I expect even recogised herding breeds will grab from time to time.

Any advice you can give me will be much appreciated as I see this as an outlet for her instincts, and while I doubt we will be going on to trial, it would be fun to see how she would go in the instinct test.

[Mel 45]

No comment, but HANNAH!!!

[Norskgra]

Thanks for posting the list Tracey.

I didn't realise that I could do herding with my Elkhounds. I used to do it when I had OES.

[superminty]

Hello Mel. Can whippet crosses do herding? Can't wait to see. maybe rabbit herding. Sorry, off topic.

[mjk05]

mixed breeds may be accepted provided they are a mix or apparent mix of herding breeds.

Tracey, it doesn't actually say "TWO herding breeds"... I think the way its interpreted in WA, dogs that have one herding-breed parent are allowed, as are dogs that are obviously largely herding-breed but some bits of who knows what else.

I think these "starters days" are catering not just to ANKC herding hopefuls, but also to people who just want to do something different with their dog. I don't think they ever intended going on to trial.

Someone will have a go in a non-controlled environment (Unlike the training day at Dave's place ) and who knows what will happen.

That's a valid point. I guess its worth reminding people that this isn't something you should just "have a go" at without experienced supervision.

But these breeds are within the rules.... We have rules in place for a reason

I personally have no problems with any breed being able to do ANKC herding. And I think the "rules" don't really offer much protection against animal welfare concerns. I don't think PETA would look kindly on a Giant Schnauzer injuring or killing a sheep- I don't think the general public would think any differently about a Schnauzer or Kerry Blue Terrier damaging livestock to a Rottweiler or Boxer. Both of these breeds have some claims to "herding origins"- I don't know if they are more or less valid than the Schnauzer claim, but I doubt the public would think differently.

This is very much like the concerns expressed by the WSDA people in my state about ANKC herding in general- the idea of GSDs hurting or harrassing sheep in an HIC test, and the RSPCA coming down on ALL "herding", include the WSDA, was large in their minds. And to be honest, some dogs (of all breeds) at ANKC tests I've seen DID appear to be giving sheep a hard time. Yes, that can happen even when WSDA people start young dogs- but it doesn't happen at public competitions, in full view.

We had a "fun day" a while back where all sorts of dogs (non-herding) "had a go" on sheep, and they didn't do anything more dangerous than the HIC tests I've seen.

I reckon if someone has a dog that's talented enough/well trained enough to compete with all the herding breeds at ANKC (or WSDA) tests, they should be able to.

I have also wondered what would happen if someone trained, say, a pitbull to do yard trials or 3 sheep trials (hasn't Greg Prince famously claimed he could train a Labrador to do yard trials ) and so got their dog registered on merit with the local WSDA- would they then be able to get the dog on the Sporting Register, and do ANKC herding?

Or are WSDA-reg'd dogs of any non-recognised breed (like koolies or huntaways) still ineligible for ANKC herding tests?

[Mel 45]

Hannah I think you should buy some sheep for Minty to practise on.

Hmm, I think he'll be able to herd ok, and herd rabbits ok too

it's just the recall that's suffering badly at the moment...

[fidelis Border Collies]

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[fidelis Border Collies]

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[cacharel]

I'm with you Tracey - the actual quote from the rules is

MIXED BREEDS

Mixed breeds may be accepted provided they are a mix or an apparent mix of HERDING BREEDS. These dogs must be Associate Register Dogs.

and again from the ANKC Herding Rule Book

Around the world, herding dogs have proven themselves to be

essential in improving man's ability to control and move stock. Many

herding dogs have working styles very different to the modern sheep

dogs we see in Australia today. These different herding styles

developed in response to local situations and needs.

As the breeding, pedigree recording, and exhibition of these dogs

progressed, many have been accepted as pure breeds. Herding instinct

is a precious part of a herding breed's heritage. It is also a vital

component that can be easily lost when breeding for exhibition in the

show ring.

The ANKC Herding program is designed to preserve the traditional style

and herding instinct of these many breeds. Herding tests and trials

provide a standardised gauge by which a dog's basic instinct and ability

can be measured, and allow dogs to demonstrate the useful functions

for which they were originally developed.

AIMS

Preserve the working instinct and ability of the working breeds

with a view to in the future recognising these by way of awards / titles.

The training and education of administration, judging and scribing

personnel for the purposes of herding tests and trials of the future.

[fidelis Border Collies]

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[MolassesLass]

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[superminty]

Thanks Tracey, I can certainly see your point. So it will be at the judge's discretion whether she is allowed to run or not, is that right? Guess we will just have to try our luck on the day. I would be disappointed should she not get a go but I do know that rules are there for a reason.

[fidelis Border Collies]

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[fidelis Border Collies]

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[MolassesLass]

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[Vickie]

removed comments not relevant to this thread

Edited December 19, 2005 by Vickie

[KismetKat]

Vicki - the very first question I asked (ages ago now) about this was the welfare of the sheep - the answer was reassuring. The situation is very controlled, the sheep are 'well dogged' (I beleive that is the right expression) and I for one, if my dog wasn't working out, would happily pull up stumps and call it quits.

As to the breeds allowed - well I suspect my dog has BC, kelpie and maybe even some Corgi - so that's three! Mind you I also suspect a dash of Foxy terrier as well. It's all a bit hard to tell. However she certainly has a lot of sheepdog traits.

As for your 'at worst' scenario - I can't imagine anyone here letting their dog get into such a situation.

[Guest Tess32]

I think these "starters days" are catering not just to ANKC herding hopefuls, but also to people who just want to do something different with their dog. I don't think they ever intended going on to trial.

Right.

Perhaps people are suddenly overwhelmed with the sudden friendliness associated with herding. I think beginning herding is rather daunting because there IS snobbiness associated with what breed you have. Heck I *have* a herding breed but they aren't border collies or kelpies and so....

Of course there are friendly people in herding...but even at one of the talks I have gone to at a pet expo day, the person even said "other herding breeds like rough collies still herd, but if you want to really get into herding.....".

The same thing happens with other dog sports, but obviously the fact that herding is not just a sport means that for people who just want to try it out, it doesn't come across as the easiest or friendliest thing to start.

Nat

[nickyp]

I've read this thread about 4 times and (maybe it's just me) I'm not sure I understand what the point of it is.

Are you (OP or any other poster) trying to say that those of us not interested in doing ANKC herding shouldn't do it at all?

Dogs who are not a herding breed or mix should not be allowed to attempt herding?

Is the growth in interest in herding somehow threatening?

I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to understand what's being said and what it means for people like myself.

I have herding mix dogs (kelpiexACD & kelpiex?). My major interest is in learning how best to work with them and utilise their drives & instincts to provide them and me with a satisfying experience. I've attended the one herding workshop with the kelpiexACD as part of that quest and I plan to attend more to further it. I don't want an ANKC herding title. My dogs will possibly never actually work sheep. Is it suggested that I shouldn't be doing this?

Again, I don't want to start a fight (but I will bite if prodded ). I just want to get my head around this.