Older Dog Trying To Bite New Puppy

[Animal House]

Hi Everyone,

Our new little bundle of joy arrived today, she is a 9 week old Staffy female and very socialised (from ARF).

I have two male dogs, one is Charlie a Staffy x Beagle who is 5, and Ive had for 3 years, the other is Hairy, (from ARF too) a 2yo Silky Terrier Cross who we've had for 4 months.

Charlie is such a freindly dog, loves everyone and everything, my g/f dogs come up and hes so happy to see them.

Now when pup arrived, they met her in the front yard, she was in the crate, and I introduced them one at a time. Hairy licked her to death, Charlie wanted to bite her.

Put pup into sunroom with a screen door between them, Charlie still wanted to bite her (and not a nip either), Hairy has played with her quite a bit, very happy to share his food and everything.

I bought a muzzle for Charlie this arvo, to put on so he can still be around her, but not able to hurt her.

I have had them all out in the front yard, they were doing okay, but then he rolled her and tried to get her again (thought couldnt).

Ive made sure I have paid him heaps of attention, and the pup less etc, fed him first tonight, and given him treats when hes sat etc.

Should I leave pup/Hairy together in the sunroom and have Charlie with us in the lounge to reinforce hes still the dominant dog?

I know intro's can take a long time, but for some reason, Charlie still wants to bite her.

Any further ideas for day to day transitions?

Im trying to give each dog equal time in with us, but pup squeals when left alone, so I usually leave Hairy with her.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Cazbear

[poodlefan]

Cazbear can you describe in more detail what happened between Charlie and Minty?

Is Charlie flying at the pup unprovoked and attacking her (so she yelps in pain?). Has he actually drawn blood?

Or are we looking at less than that.

Does Charlie lunge at the pup when she approaches him - is he putting his mouth on her or really trying to take a piece out of her?

I would NOT muzzle him - you are putting him in the situation where he cannot discipline the pup if she oversteps the mark. Keep him on lead if necessary or separate them.

[Animal House]

Hi PF,

When she was in the crate in the front yard for intro's, he went straight up and tried to bite her through the wire, and kept doing it until I pulled him away with a stern 'NO'.

Even on the lead he was seeking her out to get to her and snap.

Hes going for her nose/face, and she hasnt been near him except to grovel.

When she approached him an hour or so later, and I had him on lead, he lunged and snapped right at her face, he would have taken a peice out of her if I hadnt pulled him back in time.

When they were outside together (3 of them) in the very large front yard, she was just sniffing the ground and (he was muzzled) over he went for a sniff of her butt, then he rolled her over onto ther back very roughly and was trying to get at her neck with quite fierce growling, like you would see in a real dog fight and she yelped.

She got scared. She hasnt over stepped the mark, she hasnt even tried to play with him since then because of his instant aggression.

I wouldnt worry if he was just mouthing her, he did that a bit to Hairy when he first came, with a few growls, but more playful and sorting out who was boss, but with the pup it was full on aggro.

He only had the muzzle on for 5 mins at at time, because he was still trying to bite her nose/face through the screen door when she was in the sunroom.

Right now, pup and Hairy are in sunroom, Charlie is asleep in the lounge after a long walk with my son.

Edited to add: Charlie has a great temperament, hes very happy and trustworthy with any child, adult, our own cats, and loves everyone and any dog that comes to visit, however for some reason, he did this to a young male rotty pup about 2 months back that came for a quick visit, with all adult dogs hes been fine, especially females as he loves them.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Cazbear

[Animal House]

Update

Things are getting a little easier, he doesnt want to go after her all the time now but when they are together, he still is wearing the muzzle and Im paying him extra attention and praising him when he sits to get brushed (his fave thing apart from eating ) and hes ignorning pup a little more.

Any more suggestions from the wise ones? :D

[phatdex]

she looked very tiny and people differ on when the puppy fear period is. Maybe u should keep them seperate or she may become a fear biter.

maybe wait till she is bigger and they can sort things out without maybe one snap killing her.

[Animal House]

Hi Phatdex,

Im not sure what you mean?

Do you mean the puppy will try and bite my dog out of fear?

Anyway, this morning he has ignored her, even when she went up to smooch him as I was holding his attention with a treat. She even sat under his belly while he ate it.

They are only all together under supervision, my other dog is a Silky Terrier x and he loves her and is very gentle with her, and they play well.

She is small, but shes solid, and my dog isnt big, hes a staffy x beagle, but he only has short little legs.

Theres no way he can bite her with the muzzle on, and hes only having that on for around 5 mins at a time when they are together, the rest of the time they are separate, but he is no where near as jealous/aggro as he was yesterday.

This morning he even tried a small play with her.

[phatdex]

No, I meant the fear period puppies have in their development, a window of a few weeks where if anything negative happens to them it is inprinted in them forever. Erny etc will be able to tell u this better, but if she is continually attacked during this period it may lead to fear aggression later in life.

[Animal House]

Thanks for clearing that up Phatdex.

She wont be continually attacked though, I wont let that happen.

This morning we had a breakthrough, while having their supervised time together (all 3 dogs and Charlie muzzled) he actually rolled on his back and let her play on him...until she bit him rather hard on the ear and then he pushed her off pretty quick, but no growling.

Hopefully it will all settle down over the next two weeks until he realises shes not a threat etc.

Until then, close monitoring etc and separation for the major part of the day.

[Miranda]

Continue to supervise them but give it some more time. Once he realises she's a girl dog you won't (shouldn't) have anymore problems

[Animal House]

Once he realises she's a girl dog you won't (shouldn't) have anymore problems 

Ah, I see what you mean.

[chicko]

Can we have some pics of your staffy x beagle

[Animal House]

Yup, here he is, piano legs and staffy body.

Forgot to add, theres better pics in the Photo section of him and new pup Minty.

(titled Minty)

Edited December 9, 2005 by Cazbear

[haven]

Cazbear, you specified that he is good with adult dogs but mentioned that he has had issues with two different puppies. What is he like in general with younger dogs? Are these two the only puppies he has had an issue with amongst the hundreds he has met, or has he not been around any other puppies?

It is unusual for a dog to really try to harm a puppy, although not unusual for there to be a period of time where an adult dog is not happy with a new puppy in the household. It may be that all it takes is a period of adjustment or we could be looking at some more wide reaching implications. For example, when Nova had her puppy Wes, my old cocker bitch wouldnt have anything to do with him for about two months. After that they were the best of friends. Another example is a Border Collie I know that was attacked and seriously injured by a small dog and ever since then is aggressive to small dogs, including puppies until they get to e certain size. Both examples require different treatment.

Phatdex is absolutely correct about the implications of this behaviour on your puppy. She is in her critical period and if continuously attacked or intimidated by your older dog, she could grow to have some fear issues with dogs. Learning during the critical period is permenant, whatever damage done cannot be undone, so you need to be very careful about what she is exposed to.

I'd be wary of muzzling your older dog all the time too. In addition to the point PF made, your older dog may easily make the association of wearing the muzzle, which is aversive, with the presence of your puppy. He may also behave with the muzzle on, but when you take it off its a whole new ball game.....

[Toohey]

I have been introducing a new pup to my older dog over the last three weeks.

At first he wanted nothing to do with her and skirted way way around her, growled if she came close but no biting, just a very annoyed and upset boy.

I closely supervised them together and separated them when out, ie. her in the kitchen with a security gate, him in the rest of the house, so they could still see each other but she could not annoy him.

This is a very confident pup too, and no matter how severe a telling off she got from him, she has not been frightened, just backs off and sits nearby watching him.

Took ten days until I could see acceptance happening on his part. He began to tolerate her EXCEPT for when she tried to jump all over him or swing on his ears. She got a telling off for that and learnt to back off. They now run around the garden side by side and sleep on the same bed, BUT she still gets reminders from him that it is not acceptable to harrass and chew on your elders.

I am allowing them together time outside when I am not home now, and there are no problems at all. He is disciplining her when she gets out of line, as I do too, as she has this thing where she likes to leap and snap at faces and both Leo and I are not enjoying having our faces and other bits chewed.

But they are becoming freinds, and things are improving every day.

With Leo, it was never a jealousy issue as I have had several adults visit and stay and never had a problem. With him, it is the issue of an annoying puppy who gets in his face.

[Animal House]

Thanks for that advice Haven and Toohey.

They are mostly separated at the moment, older dog gets the run of the house, and puppy is in the sunroom with Hairy (other resident doggy)

They are still having time together, mainly in the front yard (fenced and safe) and Minty seems to love Charlie the most, she grovels to him and he ignores her, sometimes growls and sometimes lets her play, as he rolls onto his belly for her to get on. When hes had enough, he pushes her off.

Ive had them outside today, without him having the muzzle on, and hes been licking her face, and sometimes warning her, but no attempt at biting, which is good.

He wont let her up on the doggy couch, but thats okay, Im not letting her up there, because thats his space.

Hes only a small dog, (prob 12 inches high) despite being a staffy cross, he just missed out on having long legs. He has mixed with small tiny dogs, and big boxer type dogs whilst Ive had him (I got him as a 2 year old) and has never been aggro, always submissive to other dogs. As you said, maybe hes just not had any experience with pups.

Minty isnt at all scared of him, he has told her off today when she was biting his ears hard during play, and she backed off, but then chased him around the yard to try to do it again, until I stepped in and bought her back inside.

Hairy on the other hand is her personal chew toy and partner in crime, until hes had enough and retreats somewhere where she cant find him.

I guess its just time and adjustment, and him associating the pup with good things?

[Erny]

Sorry .... I've only just come across this thread.

Phatdex and Haven had both posted well, and it does sound like Charlie has some issues relating to puppies.

I also agree that you need to be careful about muzzling Charlie whenever he's in the presence of the pup. If he isn't fond of the muzzle, it can be an aversive in his mind .... akin to punishment everytime the pup is present.

One additional thing you can do is to have the pup crated, bring Charlie in on leash and feed Charlie his dinner (or treats, or play or other stuff Charlie really loves ... like brushing, as you've already done). Randomise these "wonderful events" ... with consistency, Charlie may come to enjoy being around your pup because great things happen for him when he is.

It sounds like you may be on the way to getting them used to each other.

I probably wouldn't have introduced the dogs at your home .... I tend to prefer to introduce in neutral territory first - but what's done is done and may or may not have made a big difference to Charlie, if his issues relate to pups in general. Keep Charlies routine as close to normal as is possible, too.

I think you're on the right track with the care that you are taking with these two being around each other.

Another tip, however .... don't forget to teach your new pup some independance training. IE Get it used to knowing that being alone is ok. Take care not to cater to the pup's whining/crying, or you may find you're pup will have probs later on in life. This doesn't mean you have to leave the pup on its own for hourse on end at the beginning. But 5 or 10 minutes at a time won't hurt. Try doing this close to the time the pup's due to sleep, so that you (and/or your dogs) aren't coming back while the pup's still whining .... hopefully, she's simply dozed off!

Hope these tips are helpful and that relationships between Charlie and the Pup continue to improve. It's difficult (and not necessarily recommended) to advise in regards to aggression over the net, but some of these idea's and recommendations you may find useful.

Let us know of the progress.

Cheers.

ETA: Some supervised and controlled socialisation to pups at a training school (with instructors intellectly qualified to advise and monitor in the subject) would be recommended and may help Charlie generally. This in itself may have a larger carry over effect with the pup than you might imagine.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Erny

[Animal House]

Thanks Erny.

I did consider the neutral territory initial meeting, but it would have been hard because pup is only 9 weeks old and not allowed to be on the ground (outside of home) because of the parvo risk etc.

I will try the crate with puppy too, and Charlie being there having his fave things done. Hes mostly ignoring her lately, she does follow him around like shes in love though, trying to gently kiss him, and hes just giving her a warning growl, but occasionally he will play nicely with her, and I praise him loads then.

Once again, thank you for your replies everyone.

Oh, and Minty (pup) sleeps in the sunroom alone (well, the cats are there, but they have elevated baskets ) and will often take herself off there for a snooze during the day. She has a basket in the lounge too, so she often has a snooze in there, unless shes dragging it around the room to play with.

[Erny]

CB:  Hes mostly ignoring her lately

Good.

CB:  ..... she does follow him around like shes in love though, trying to gently kiss him, and hes just giving her a warning growl, but occasionally he will play nicely with her, and I praise him loads then.

..... she's being submissive .... grovelling to Charlie to show she's aware of her status. And, knowing pups, trying to milk him for attention too!

[*pink*poodle*]

:D

5 years after getting a 2nd dog my 1st dog still bites him.

They are both small poodles so not really likely to do much harm!

If he is having fun or playing with a toy, grumpy old Tippi will jump off where she is sitting and bark at him and nip him.

They have only ever drawn blood twice - first night Sooty was home in bed and she REALLY attacked him, she was so guilty after it, she took herself into time out and was sick.

The second was recently, I am pretty sure it had something to do with one of them taking a chew into my bed and the other trying to get it. Not much blood, just a couple of drops! Espically since Ms. Grumpy Tippi has few teeth and Mr Sooty is so placid he doesnt bite back!!!!

Some dogs NEVER get along, although, for the most part, they live in harmony!