Gaits In Sheepdogs

[mjk05]

To avoid hijacking the thread I started for Dougie, I thought I'd move discussion of gaits seen in working sheepdogs to this thread.

Originally some of us (Tassie and myself) commented that the flying trot seen in the show ring is rarely seen in dogs working. Molasseslass asked why that was. Here's my answer:

Quote: Both my pet kelpie and BC occasionally use this gait when they are trotting fast on runs, or beside a bike. They never use it when working, and neither do our other working dogs.

On small numbers of sheep (3 or 5) they are generally walking or cantering/galloping as they go round on cast or flanks. The "flying gait" is too fast to be moving a small number of sheep quietly, and too slow to get around to flank.

On large mobs of sheep, the same sort of thing- the dogs are usually cantering or galloping around to flank. Even when they are just wearing back and forth behind a large mob, they are cantering. Sometimes they do trot when slowing down, or when holding sheep, putting them through a gate etc- but its not that "flying trot" you see in the ring.

Here's some photos of some of our dogs moving a mob (about 2500 ewes/lambs).

Flanking fast-

Driving slowly-

Putting them through a gate-

Trot when holding at the gate:

[mjk05]

Here's some other photos of a sheepdog showing some typical postures and gaits:

border collie at fast walk almost a trot gait-

border collie at slow walk-

border collie standing-

border collie ready to cover-

and the same dog at a relaxed stand, not working:

These are much more typical of a working dog than the flying trot.

[Tassie]

Love your pics mjk05. Very stylish dog in the second lot. I was thinking (but didn't say it) in the other thread about stylish working BCs (which mine isn't) and how they would go down in the show ring!

And those pics reminded me of the intensity thing too, which is so characteristic of working Border Collies - and Kelpies too.

Barb

[MolassesLass]

Originally some of us (Tassie and myself) commented that the flying trot seen in the show ring is rarely seen in dogs working. Molasseslass asked why that was.

To be correct, I asked why Tassie thought that didn't happen. I never made any agreeance of their opinion, simply wanted to know what reasoning they had for it.

Edited December 6, 2005 by molasseslass

[Vickie]

Well I was on DOL break, but I heard that there is too much going on here that I would be interested in, so I'm taking a little break from my break

Here's some more pics of gait:

I know some of them are repeated in this collage, but I am too lazy to make another one:

There is a good example in here of her body moving one way while her head looks another way.

This is about the closest pic I have of her in a non working gait...as she is leaving the paddock, although her head is still down:

ready to move in any direction:

standing:

[mjk05]

Very stylish dog in the second lot.

Oooh, harsh!! That's because the first lot are my scruffy kelpies, and the second are someone else's beautiful BC

Don't worry, I didn't take it personally

Actually both Mud and Charlie do have some stylish moves on a few sheep, but you don't see them doing the fancy footwork on big mobs. On 1-30 sheep, they seem to have the stylish moves. On more than 700, they work differently- show less eye, and seem to be either running like bu@@ery, wearing and flanking, or driving at a walk. We haven't worked any numbers in between.

I'm getting my new camera this week, and then I promise I'll get some actual stylish photos of my mongrels too.

There is a good example in here of her body moving one way while her head looks another way.

Don't you love that move? I was watching my OH work my Mud-boy last week, doing some trial training on 3 sheep, and that was one of those "take your breath away" moments- he was running wide (for a change) and as he flanked, his head would turn in to check his position, and then his body just swerved out laterally to stay off them. I can't even describe it, but it made me shiver- like his feet were gliding on a track laid in the grass. That, and the "walk-up"- the way his body drops low, his shoulder blades scythe up and down with each calculated step, tail curled dangerously between his hocks. I just love it- I don't think I can appreciate my dogs until I watch someone else work them, I'm too busy worrying and bossing to stop and see the sheer beauty of the moment.

[mjk05]

editted- triple post

Edited December 6, 2005 by mjk05

[mjk05]

editted- triple post

Edited December 6, 2005 by mjk05

[Sparty]

Bodie has a lovely floaty trot when he is cruising around looking for someone to play with but not when he is working, but then i have never been to see show border collies so i dont know if it is the same gait. i call it his "carefree look at me" gait LOL he gets lots of compliments when he does it tho the little show off!

[Tassie]

Got shivers up my spine just reading your description of your Mud-boy, mjk05. It must be a great experience to watch your dog working without having to worry about what the sheep are doing! (My girl won't work for anyone else at the moment, so I don't see that.)

And I'm glad you didn't take it personally when I focussed on the Border COllie for showing style - by that I meant that really slinky sort of stuff you can see in Vickie's post too - I haven't seen Kelpies show exactly that sort of stuff - but certainly they have all the rest of the package - especially that looking one way, body going the other - and feet looking like they're maybe pointing in different directions, just in case! And they have that same sort of totally focussed intensity - just magic.

Barb

PS - Hi Vickie - glad you dropped back in!

[mjk05]

by that I meant that really slinky sort of stuff you can see in Vickie's post too - I haven't seen Kelpies show exactly that sort of stuff

They do work like that (depends a bit on breeding)- two of ours do it all the time.

These aren't great photos, and not my dog, but this was a BIG dog who got "down and low", even in the yards - and worked beautifully...

Different dog, but shows the typical "working dog" gait on a few sheep:

especially that looking one way, body going the other

Like this ?

Edited December 6, 2005 by mjk05

[Tassie]

Oh yeah - there's a Kelpie with tons of style - great! And I just love the 'crossover' pic. Thanks

- Barb

[fidelis Border Collies]

Nice stylist Kelpies

I love that look

Tracey

[espinay2]

flying trot seen in the show ring

It must be remembered first of all that there are TWO trot gaits - the 'trot' and the 'flying trot'.

In the 'trot' or 'supported trot' which is most commonly seen, even in the show ring, the dog is supported at all times by contact with the ground. The supported trot is a two beat gait.

The 'flying trot' or 'suspended trot' on the other hand is a fast gait in which all four feet are off the ground at once for a brief second during each half stride. The GSD is the breed most famous for this gait, although all/most breeds are physically capable of achieving it. The flying trot is correctly a four beat gait (the rear foot will hit the ground slightly before the front diagonal) and a function of speed.

I suggest reading something like 'Dogsteps' to see illustrations of the two so that the difference is understood.

The trot is a patrolling gait that an animal can keep up for hours. It is used to cover distances at a steady pace with the most economy. In relation to the use of the trot in the conformation ring, the trot has the advantage of displaying the dogs angulations, length of stride, and the ability to cover ground. It is the gait that best shows off particular aspects of a dogs conformation to the observer who is examining the dogs structure (ie the Judge). Some judges will also ask that the dog be walked. A LOT can be seen about a dogs structure and movement at the walk. It is a lot harder to gauge things at the canter because the dog is moving faster making it more difficult to see. It is also unlikely that many handlers would fare too well if asked to canter their dogs around the ring instead of trotting. Many have trouble just with the trot! . The gallop of course is way too fast to be of use in the conformation ring. Remember - and I have stressed this before, the role of the conformation ring is to judge STRUCTURE. The trot is simply the gait which is the most effective for examining structure on the move with the naked eye rather than with the benefit of slow motion replay cameras and cineradiography.

Edited December 7, 2005 by espinay2

[mjk05]

suggest reading something like 'Dogsteps'

Thanks for pointing that out. I bought Dogsteps a few years ago to help me understand some of this stuff, its a great book (by Rachel Page Elliot). Really illustrates some of the terms regarding structure and movement I've heard used. Highly recommended .

The BCs and kelpies I've seen in the show ring have usually been run at a trot, at least sometimes a "flying trot". Many of the photos shown in mags and on websites to illustrate good movement seem to show "flying trots". Do the judges often ask for a walk?

The trot is a patrolling gait that an animal can keep up for hours

This is why it seems strange to have sheepdogs assessed at this gait- they don't move at a steady pace for hours when working, they are much more "stop and go".

But I take your point that its the best gait for judges to assess structure. Is that why most breeds seem to be assessed at the trot?

I have absolutely no show-ring experience, but I have often wondered if the particular pace seen in the showring showcases dogs that look best at that gait?

For example, most of our working dogs do a nice smooth flying trot when running on lead beside a bike, or close beside the motorbike (will check what speed). But if I take them on lead and run around the backyard at a pace similar to what I see in the show ring, they tend to overreach and crab. Beside a bike, I can stretch out their stride and move from an overreaching trot to a smooth extended trot...

To my inexperienced eye, successful BCs in the show ring seem to sometimes be on the short-legged side (compared to the working variety, anyway) and I have wondered if that's because those dogs look much sweeter at the trot at "ring pace"...

I'd be interested to hear what experienced show people think.

[espinay2]

Do the judges often ask for a walk?

Not often overall, but I have encountered it quite a number of times.

But I take your point that its the best gait for judges to assess structure. Is that why most breeds seem to be assessed at the trot?

Yes. It is simply the best gait to assess structure on the move when you are looking with the naked eye.

I have absolutely no show-ring experience, but I have often wondered if the particular pace seen in the showring showcases dogs that look best at that gait?

In a way, but then a dog that does not move correctly at the trot does not have correct structure. Naturally there are breed differences. For example a Airedale with its upright shoulder moves differently at the trot to the Afghan. And Chow with its straighter stifle will move differently to a Min Pin which has a hackney gait.

But if I take them on lead and run around the backyard at a pace similar to what I see in the show ring, they tend to overreach and crab.

A lot of this is training for both the dog AND the handler. It can take work to establish the correct pace and length of stride to match the dog and show it off to its best advantage. Not all dogs are run at the same pace and in fact sometimes you can run them TOO fast just as you can run them not fast enough. Where the lead is can also play a part. You can cause a dog to crab very easily if not careful. Of course the dogs structure can play a part too and a slower pace can sometimes show up a few things that are harder to see when the dog is run faster. Often you will hear judges ask handlers to slow their dog down and run the dog on a looser lead.

[mjk05]

A lot of this is training for both the dog AND the handler. It can take work to establish the correct pace and length of stride to match the dog and show it off to its best advantage

Thanks for explaining this stuff. Its very interesting.

I've been watching the odd show here and there, and I'm assuming that different sizes and structures of dogs will trot at different speeds...

I know my STCD has a very limited range of speed where he will trot- generally he paces or canters (I believe pacing is common for the breed). Some of our BCs and kelpies can trot beside a bike at quite high speeds (faster than I can jog), and look most fluent and comfortable at those higher speeds.

So do judges factor in the speed people are running in assessing the dog's movement at the trot? Sometimes (from my very limited to exposure to showing) it seems that the speeds of gaiting in the show ring are somewhat limited to the range of the "middle-aged lady jog" , Do judges ever ask people to go faster? Should standards specify what "handler speed" the dogs are trotting at (even fast, medium pace, slow)?

I'm probably not making a lot of sense...