Rmb & Barf

[Working_Setters]

As I've posted elsewhere just finished reading "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale (author of Raw Meaty Bones). The book made a lot of sense to me and I'm thinking of giving it a go with my dogs.

Lonsdale believes dogs should be feed around 78-80% RMB and 20-22% other, which includes fruit, veg etc. Other BARF programs suggest considerably more fruit and veg, with less meat.

Having dressed out my share of animals, I'm inclinded to agree with Lonsdale. Seems to me a dog eating a rabbit for example would get around 80% RMB and 20% other, which would include some partially digested vegetation in the rabbit's gut.

I also found myself agreeing with Lonsdale about the benefits of feeding entire carcasses or large chunks of meat and bone, rather than all ground up which seems to be popular. Seems to me there are considerable benefits in terms of the dog’s teeth, gums and overall heath in having a dog work for its food rather than scoffing down a ground up mush.

Would be very interested to hear from others that have made the transition from kibble to RMB/BARF. Why did you change, what (if any) problems did you encounter and would you ever go back to kibble?

Would also be very interested in hear thoughts and opinions as to the merits of Lonsdale’s RMB diet Vs other BARF programs.

[Hazz]

I've just switched over to the barf diet so can't really offer expert advice as I'm still very much a novice but my first impressions on the new diet are excellent.

I switched as after reading info and asking people who use the diet themselves - like you I tend to agree with the basis of this diet incomparison to a commercial diet.

I do feed the Barf patties (for convenience - but they actually have ground up bone chunks and what have you in them) along with rmbs - Chicken necks, wings, wing tips and carcasses (they love the carcasses - seeing their eyes light up the first time I gave them to them was remarkable !) - I'm open to ideas over other rmbs.

I find they have much more satisfaction with their food, clean out bowls entirely (they used to leave some kibble) and I don't have to brush their teeth like before.

I havn't encountered any problems thus far and the dogs have taken to it extremely well and I don't see myself going back to kibble - mind you I have a few bags of kibble left over which I've tried mixing with the patties (just to get rid of it) but they suck all the patties off them and leave the biscuits so I think they have made their discision over what they prefer

[BCNTC]

I have fed BARF for 5 years and LOVE it, I would never gp back to kibble. I have never heard of any type of raw that figers you should feed more veggies then meat though lol that does not back any sence at all I do not feed premade. breakfast is pulped veggies mixed with some sort of meat or fish or organ meat, and possably some yogurt or eggs, supper is whole raw meaty bones, deptimes with fur still intact lol it depends on which butcher we go to. when Misty is in season she gets a whole deer head to herself to keep her occupied...and sleeps on the floor! lol chewing THAT much makes her REALLY gassy from all the air she inhales while she chews.

the results are incredable their coats are very pretty and very glossy, I always hear peopel talking about using whiting agents etc on therir dogs, the white on all my dogs coats are pure snowy white, I use zero whiting agents and they will come in from rolling in the mud, the mud dries off and the coat is once again pure white. their teeth so sparkling clean, and in the 5 years I have fed raw not one of the 6 dogs fed it to have ever been sick, and all injurys have healed incredably fast, they have completly natural immunity to common dog illnesses with no shots at all. they have never had dandrudd, fleas, mites, or any sort of skin problem, ears always look like they have been professionally cleaned, although no cleaning agent has ever touched their ears.

Shadow, was 4 years old when we started on raw, we had been ready to put her down as her arthitus was so bad she litterally should not even stand up, and only certain parts of her body could be touched at all and as a result of her spay she threw up at leatst once every single day. currently she is 9 years old, wrestles with her new dad, keeps up with her young GR brother, and has not thrown up in 5 years.

and of coarse there is Ripley, when we adopted him at 8 months old, we got him only as a pet, he was very fat, very lazy, and just kind of "blah", 2 days after the switch the idea of him being simpley a "pet" went out the window, that dog outlasts my border collies, and his reflexes are incredable, when he goes to the dog park, he is the fastest one there, the dogs always try to keep up with him at first...they always wind up giving up on that idea lol

Happy is the reason we switched, she was not doing well on kibble at all, she was very weak, and very sick, I spent several days giving her water through a turkey baster, she was skin and bones, her coat dull and grey and flaky. when we came back to the dog club after the switch nobody could believe that this was the same dog, that "weak" sickley dog, is now the most athletic dog you will ever meet, never gets sick, and her pain tolerance is incredable, I have yet to meet another dog that gets their nail cought, twisted and torn from their foot and not even wince, the blood pooling on the floor was the only indication that anything was wrong.

[poodlefan]

Espinay2 is the person who will hopefully respond to this Working Setters. Or you could PM her.

I feed only once a day (all my dogs are adult) and I average two days of RMBs and one day of a BARF mix that's about 50% vegetable. That probably equates to about the amount of vegetable matter you're considering and my dogs are doing very well on it. I've fed raw for about 6 years.

Many very experienced raw feeders feed far less vegetable matter than people newer to the diet. I'm pretty sure Espinay is one of them. Chicken carcasses from the basis of many large dogs raw diets.

Most of my friends raw feed and those who have made the switch on adult dogs have all noted improvements in their dog's health - even if its just in coat and breath.

I'd highly recommend you take the plunge - I wouldn't feed my dogs any other way.

Edited to add - the only minced meat my dogs get is in their veggie mix. All other meat is fed on the bone. I think my dogs benefit from that from both a health and psychological perspective.

Edited December 3, 2005 by poodlefan

[Mana]

I'm a comparative novice with rmb/barf, but it was the RMB Promote Health book that convinced me, not Billinghurst's.

I have bought and referred to Billinghurst's books, in particular for supplements (for pups who had been sick), which Lonsdale doesn't advocate, but overall what they get is in as big chunks/carcasses as possible, and more towards the 80% RMB ratio.

Any higher vege component was on the basis that they were large breed pups who had had bone problems and I wanted them to grow slowly - oh and a chubba labrador who I was trying to slim down got a bit more vege pulp to bulk up her meals too.

It's probably unfair to say this, as it's really a comment on writing style, but I trust Lonsdale's science more than Billinghurst's...

ed to add - I've still fed kibble on occasion (we are 90 mins drive out of town and my chest freezer is still up in Sydney) and I'll be feeding mainly kibble when we go camping next week - I'm trying out Royal Canin. But if circumstances allow it, I would hope to be able to stick with raw feeding for the long term.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Mana

[curlyking]

I've been feeding a diet based on Billinghurst's BARF diet now for about 4 years.

I changed my dogs then 13, 6 and 10 months because I believed that had to be a better diet than commercial based products. Prior to changing the dogs were fed raw chicken or beef, usually minced and occasionally table scraps together with kibble.

Each of the dogs took to the change well and we had no transition effects. However, I find the diet in comparasion to feeding a mid range kibble and raw meat quite expensive and very hard to keep up the required supply (now feeding 4 dogs). I had to purchase a freezer to have any chance of making this work for me. Unless you can source a cheap supplier of what you are using and buy in bulk I can see this diet could be cost prohibative for many. My food bill initallywent from about $20 - $30 a week for the 3 dogs to over $100.

In all honesty, I would not say my dogs were any better for the raw diet, I had never had problems with their health or with whelping. As far as I can see nothing in that regard changed except for one reason or another I seemed to be spending much more time at the Vet's. This probably was not related to the diet but may have been in as much as the dogs seemed to have more muscular type injuries.

After the 4 years of feeding raw have just had my first (in 30 years) difficult whelping which ended up with a caesar to deliver the last pup. Does this have anything to do with the diet? I don't know it may be coincidental but it does show that just because a raw diet is fed the dogs will not encounter any problems which is the mantra of Billinghurst.

At the moment I am still predominately feeding the raw diet because I still believe it is the best there is but a couple of times a week they dogs do now get kibble.

I look at these nights as equvialent of having fish n chips or McD's

[Mana]

I look at these nights as equvialent of having fish n chips or McD's

We call it "party food"!

I worked out all my expenditure a week or so ago, it averages at about $10 per dog per week on RMB/BARF, plus another couple of dollars for supplements/eggs/glucosamine etc. I think that's about the same as mum used to spend on our old dog on Supercoat, but with the posh kibbles the price goes up a lot - my bag of Royal Canin will probably work out at about $20 per dog per week... so at the moment, it is more economical for me to feed raw - but that said I'd be interested to see how they go on some of the mid range kibbles. I've heard good things about Bonnie?

I've never done a changeover in diet to be able to compare condition on the two - these pups have grown up on RMB/BARF with an occasional bit of kibble or Nature's Gift as a treat, and Ruski was in pathetic state when he came out of the pound anyway, so being fed anything much was an improvement for him... everyone does comment on how healthy and shiny they look though...

[Miranda]

I feed a meat on bone meal in the morning (chicken frame, necks, wings, brisket, lamb flap etc.), but I still feed a little kibble with their meal at night. Their evening meal consists of about 1 cup of Eagle Pack Holistic with meat + maybe cooked liver and veg or maybe sardines/mackerel or a raw egg. They also get yoghurt whenever we have it. They are all fit and healthy with nice healthy coats.

[Working_Setters]

Thanks for the info guys - keep it coming.

I currently feed one chicken frame per dog in the mornings and a bit over a cup of Euk in the evenings. RMB 2-4 days per week. My dogs are very active and coats look good, so I can't complain about how they perform on this diet. It just seems so "unnatural" to feed a dog grain based kibble. I want to switch the family over to an organic, home grown/harvested, diet. Since I hunt I get RMB cheap. Guess I was just brainwashed, but somehow I never considered 80% RMB plus 20% other (offal, organs, fruit & vegies) to be a complete diet. Looking back it seems like a foolish notion, I mean I spend a lot of time outdoors and I know what foxes and dingos eat.

[Miranda]

Working Setters when I lived in the country my dogs used to catch and eat entire rabbits, it all got digested except for the fur which came out in their poo and they were never healthier

[JackieW]

I've been feeding raw for 6 or 7 years, the older dog was switched over from dry food as an adult and the younger dog was switched when I got her as a pup.

They get chicken wings/necks and a brisket bone in the morning and meat/veg/whatever in the evening (the whatever is eggs, yoghurt, supplements or whatever else I'm adding that day). Once or twice a week they have chicken frames.

They have nice teeth, don't have doggy breath, nice coats.... I think it's a great way of feeding. And the dogs (and cat) love it too.

[noisymina]

Started BARF on 4year old Dobe soon after we got her - and I read about it here.

Did partly from curiosity, partly from distrust of commercial foods - profit factor MUST affect quality says my logic - also 'cause this one has a couple of health issues - not major.

She's doing well, vet was most impressed by her teeth at last check

I do feed some mince with the bones becaus the bones I get don't have much meat on them really.

Bones/ meat in PM

Veg + other things (liver, egg, etc) in AM

Yep, About 20% all up in the mornings, rest in evening.

Cost - a bit more, but not much.

A lot more effort - would only go back if I could not do it for some reason - time wise.

Cat has it too.

They both have toast and vegemite at breakfast.

cheers

Edited December 3, 2005 by noisymina

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I switched my dogs to BARF more than 2 1/2 yrs ago, and I do not feed minced/ground anything very often. The diet I feed is based on RMBs not patties or mush. IMHO it's the RMBs that make the difference to my dogs' health and their enjoyment of their meals.

I feed a small proportion of their diet as veg/fruit slop (two or three meals a week contain this) and ATM they're getting VAN Complete Mix as a substitute b/c we are about to move interstate. I feed a proportion of the diet as offal...about 10-20% over two weeks' meals is a rough guide. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less.

There are no hard and fast rules except with the foods to avoid.

I do not feed 'everything' for every meal. Most meals are RMBs. Some meals include offal. Some include veg/fruit slop or complete mix. Some include yoghurt. Some include egg. And some include canned mackeral or sardines.

I read Billinghurst's book and then I experimented with what works. I like to use the bigger bones from bigger animals at least weekly. I try to feed lamb or beef bones at least as often as poultry. Sometimes that's difficult b/c the butcher doesn't always have what I need. ATM they're mostly on poultry but that's due to the move...didn't want to have too much from the butcher left over, so everything is now gone except the poultry.

[Working_Setters]

Thanks for the input folks. One thing that surprised me in Lonsdale's book was the advice to stay away from "recreational bone", large beef marrow bones, I'd always assumed these were just the ticket for cleaning teeth, but Lonsdale claims "Not only do hard indigestible bones fail to clean teeth; oftentimes they break teeth and are best avoided". As I say this was news to me, I figured all the gnawing on large bones was great for cleaning teeth.

So how hard/chewy does a bone need to be to contribute to teeth cleaning? What about chicken frames or lamb brisket bones, are they good teeth cleaners?

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Marrow bones are OK as an occasional treat - I can't honestly remember the last time my dogs got one, but I do know it was in Cairns (we moved in November/December last year from Cairns to Melbourne).

My dogs main staple bones include chicken parts (necks, wings, frames, etc); lamb (neck, shanks, ribs); beef (brisket pieces are GREAT, ribs, tail); roo tail, but no pork (pork makes them sick). Chicken is readily available and cheap and it's not a bad source of protein, but it should make up a smaller percentage of the diet than other types of bones if you're primarily wanting a clean mouth result.

Lonsdale is correct about teeth being broken on harder bones. But the point is that you should remove the marrow bone while the "shaft" is still intact. Your dog shouldn't be at the point of breaking that part of the bone, s/he should have gnawed at the knuckle end and cleaned it off, yet the smaller part of the bone (shaft) should be intact or simply devoid of marrow.

I hope this helps to clarify. :D

[espinay2]

Would be very interested to hear from others that have made the transition from kibble to RMB/BARF. Why did you change, what (if any) problems did you encounter and would you ever go back to kibble?

I have fed raw for about 11 or so years now. I changed because of a dog with alergies and it just seemed to make sense. I knew a lot of others in my area who had had success and decided to give it a try. I really have never encountered a problem and can see no reason to EVER go back to kibble.

While I fed more veggies in the beginning, over the years I have changed things around and now tend to feed a lot less - more or less in line with Tom Lonsdales thinking. I find this works very well for my dogs. I love the coats and the condition as well as their overall health.

I too am not fond of recreational bones like the big leg bones and personally dont feed them. they are very hard and as a rule a dog/wolf in the wild will not bother with them for this reason. They are even worse when they are cut with a saw as this creates artificial surfaces which encourgae the dog to chew on the harder parts of the bone rather than just the softer ends. If someone wants to give these types of bones, IMO they should always be provided whole and removed once the soft ends have been chewed. I would not give them to hard core chewers.

The types of Raw Mmaty Bones I feed include the following (noting I have large dogs - the smallest is a Dally):

Chicken Frames, pieces, whole chickens (half each usually)

Lamb flaps, whole necks, offcuts

Kangaroo Tails

Rabbit (whole or pieces)

Duck (usually quartered)

Turkey necks or frames

Beef Brisket bones, backbones, oxtails (whole)

Pork trotters, hocks, tails (incl backbone)

They also get other things like roo mince or chunks, beef mince or chunks, kidney (beef or lamb), heart (beef or lamb), liver (beef, lamb or chicken), tounge (beef or lamb), eggs, canned or fresh whole fish.

When we have veggie lefovers or other heathy food scraps (eg leftover rice) they get that. As a rule however, I do not specifically prepare these for them. If I have a heap of veggies in the fridge I will sometime puree them for them, but veggies are usually a small amount about once a fortnight on average.

The only supplement they get regularly is fish oil capsules (except for the arthritic girl who gets others specific to her condition).

[Mana]

Please forgive me, but it's a slow afternoon out here in the bush and I've nothing better to do (other than try and answer more bloody selection criteria!)... :D

But my doglets had bones this morning...

& I think this is what you're describing lilysmum.

Red bits were originally all that beaut white knuckle material, the pink bits were lick-outable marrow.

So this is when they should be removed, yes?

[Guest LittlePixie]

My guys get mostly BARF but they get kibble some nights too... usually if I've forgotten to thaw something out.

They have shinier coats and better breath when on BARF than on weeks like this when they've had mostly kibble (Nutro Choice and Nutrience).

They get...

Chicken frames, necks and wings

Turkey necks

Lamb brisket

Sardines, tuna, mackeral (tinned)

Eggs (from my housemate's chooks)

Yoghurt

Steak & kidney mince (beef, roo, kidney and heart)

A very occasional meal of oat porridge with fruit & honey

Vegie mix

Supplement wise... fish oil capsules and Missing Link occasionally.

[Mana]

Apologies, espinay, I was so caught up in my Photoshopping that you posted before I did! :D

Can I ask then whether you have any other suggestions for recreational/diversion chewing etc? There are occasions where a big marrow bone has been very useful to keep my lot occupied, but I certainly don't want to cause them tooth trouble. Kongs don't last as long, and Ruby will start chewing sticks and stones if she doesn't get a bone... When I go back to full time work I had planned to leave them with a big bone when I left in the morning.

It does take them a while to get through lamb ribs etc, but that's no match for the entertainment of a beef shin or something!

And, if it's not a secret supply source , can I ask where abouts you get kangaroo tails from? I think they have them at PetBarn but I've had some dodgy meat from there...

[O-Ren]

i too am a total novice at this doggy dieting atm O-ren is loving it! her coat is alot better and her activity levels, well they were always in overdrive anywayz! but i have noticed a BIG improvement of their breath- much better breath! stools are less smelly too :D

a few chicken necks of a morning

prime mince and about 1.5cup of dry bikkies + il add an egg or some left over vegies, for dinner

they also get a meaty bone around 'lunch time' which keeps them occupied and their breath nice

have tried yoghart, O-ren wasnt a big fan

QUESTION: how important is the vegies part of their diet? or would she be getting enuff from the vegie content in the bikkies

QUESTION 2: raw or cooked vegies??? is cooked bad or just not AS good as raw?

EGG QQUESTION: raw? boiled? fried? which is better??????????

thanks once again for introducing me to barf etc, so much cheaper and is really working for us!