Can You Teach An Older Dog New Tricks?

[Missey's Mum]

I have a 4 year old Jack Russell/Staffordshire terrier cross. As she gets older, she seems to be having more and more trouble fighting with other dogs.

I will admit I don't think she is socialised quite enough, as in our area they tend to meet other dogs on the walk and then keep going rather than playing together at doggie park.

When she was younger, Missey liked every dog she met, then as she got older she became afraid of larger dogs, then she started having the occasional fight, and lately it has become too often. She is still friends with all the dogs she meet when she was young.

When she first sees another dog, she seems to want to talk, first she will go over to it, and if it is larger she will generally walk away. If it is the same size she tends to get along (ie she seems to like other Jacks & Foxys), but if it is smaller she seems to pick a fight.

First she acts friendly and her tail will wag like crazy, then she trys to dominate the dog by sticking her head over it's back (sometimes even standing on it), the hair near her tail may stick up, generally at some point here the other dog seems a little imtimidated and will try to back away, and this seems to be a cue for Missey to chase after it and pounce on top of it.

She has never bitten another dog, just seems to wrestle until everything's quiet. Usually I pull her off first because the other owner is freaking out. I have noticed she seems to want to be friends again if they're left together afterwards.

I'm trying to keep this short, but I could go on and on. But briefly, I think she has learnt to act like this. Since she is small but stocky I don't think she realises she weighs twice as much as an ordinary dog her size. I do think she is dominant. Originally it seemed as though the other dogs started the fight after she stood on their back, so now I think that she thinks she has to start one too.

I do take her to dog parks but she is not interested in playing with anyone else.

My question is: Could a trainer help me with this? Can someone recommend one in the inner Sydney area? Can anyone offer a tip?

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Hi Missy,

A trainer could definately help with your problem.

There are a lotl great trainers and clubs out there. If you are in NSW I would recommend K9 force, he quite often posts on this board, seems to have a mountain of knowledge about these things and I have signed up to do one of his workshops early in the new year. A lot of people will tell you how wonderful he is and the success stories they have had using him. Check out the website www.k9force.net

If you are in Melbourne you can't go past ADT (Australian Dog Training) they are fantastic and I take my older dog Murray, a 9 year old Beagle cross there. We have only been going a few weeks and already I can see the difference. They also have behaviourists available to help with problems too and offer a range of services. the website for them is www.australiandogtraining.com.au

Good luck with your girl. I am sure with the help of a good trainer you can get the results you are after, though of course it will take time and hard work on both your parts.

Anne

Edited to add: Just realised you are in Sydney... Missed that bit when I read your post the first time. K9 is probably your best bet i would think

Edited December 1, 2005 by Cheyenne_Fury

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Sorry Missey's mum wanted to add, that your girl is definately trying to be dominant and by standing on the other dog she is telling them that she is the boss. If the other dog is a submissive dog then no problem, but if the other dog is also dominant that is where the problems will start. Just a question, what is she like with you? From what you are describing she seems like she is trying to assert her status as leader over the other dog/s.

Anne

Edited December 1, 2005 by Cheyenne_Fury

[Missey's Mum]

I do believe my dog knows I'm the leader, she does generally do as I say.

However, I do treat her somewhat as an equal. It is just the two of us, and I think of my place as our place. She sleeps in my bed and sits on the lounge whenever she wants.

She is very aggressive over food (when other dog are around) but will let me take it from her mouth or pretend to eat from her bowl without issue.

I'll also admit she listens to me more at home than when we are out. She will stop at curbs when told, or come back to go on the lead again, but if I say "don't go and talk to that person", too bad.

She only sees my boyfriends once a fortnight and she thinks she's above him.

I agree with you about the domince/submission thing, but the problem is that now she seems to be attacking dogs that show submissiveness.

[rachiie]

You can definitely teach an old dog new tricks. We have a 14 yo English Springer who was being very rude about snatching dinners. We taught her to lie down and wait before we let her eat. She picked it up in about 3 nights! Brilliant!

[Steve K9Pro]

MM:

As she gets older, she seems to be having more and more trouble fighting with other dogs.

K9: the reason for this is that you are putting her in placxes where fights can occur, the #1 job of the Alpha is to protect the pack, not let her fight it out, or even have the chance to.

MM:

When she was younger, Missey liked every dog she met, then as she got older she became afraid of larger dogs, then she started having the occasional fight, and lately it has become too often

K9: There are no cicumstances in which you should ever place the dog in a situation where anther dog or your dog may initiate a fight, this is the reason the problem is escalating.

MM:

When she first sees another dog, she seems to want to talk, first she will go over to it, and if it is larger she will generally walk away.

K9: these meetings need to be 100% controlled by you, not "watch & see what she does"..

MM:

First she acts friendly and her tail will wag like crazy, then she trys to dominate the dog by sticking her head over it's back (sometimes even standing on it), the hair near her tail may stick up, generally at some point here the other dog seems a little imtimidated and will try to back away, and this seems to be a cue for Missey to chase after it and pounce on top of it.

K9: You should as the Alpha, or someone who doesnt want their dogs declared dangerous, not allow this to happen...

MM:

Usually I pull her off first because the other owner is freaking out.

K9: she shouldnt be able to get on in the first place... It would be very easy for another dog owner to report you & its all downhill from there...

MM:

I do believe my dog knows I'm the leader, she does generally do as I say.

K9: your not your dogs leader, this is another reason for the aggression...

If this was another breed you would probably be reporting the dog biting you or the BF, you have serious issues there & it will take big changes to sort this...

[Erny]

I'll also admit she listens to me more at home than when we are out.

At home, she isn't in a position where she feels, as "Leader" that she needs to "handle" situations.

When she's out, she does.

Follow K9's advice .... this dog doesn't view you as a Leader in external environments. Perhaps not even at home .... but you might not be noticing it. An imbalance of leadership isn't always conspicuous. Leaderships starts at home .... and never ends.

ETA: Once your leadership is in place (in the dog's mind), you'll probably have some work to do to as your dog now has a learnt behaviour. I'm sure K9 will be able to instruct you in this regard. I'd recommend you contact him for some lessons.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Erny

[KismetKat]

What are some ways of asserting yourself as leader Erny?

I've read on these boards about NILIF. It seemed like a good idea so if my young girl asks to go in our out I make her sit first. She also has always had to do a sit/stay or a drop before she's allowed her dinner.

What are other situations where you could apply NILIF?

And aside from nilif, what else can be done to assert leadership?

[Missey's Mum]

K9: There are no cicumstances in which you should ever place the dog in a situation where anther dog or your dog may initiate a fight, this is the reason the problem is escalating.

Then I'm a little confused, I thought socialising was good. I thought it would be worse to keep her away from dogs.

Should I cross the road when I see another dog coming? or just let have quick sniff and keep going?

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Missey's mum,

I believe what k9 is saying is not that dogs shouldn't be socialised, but they should not be allowed to dominate other dogs to the point where a fight could break out. Meaning that you can not allow your girl to jump on other dogs. Before socalising your girl with any other dogs this issue needs to be addressed because there is potential for real damage to be done to dogs and/or humans

Anne

[Missey's Mum]

I still don't understand how to socialise her, yet not put her in this position. I can keep her on the lead so she can't get onto them, but that's not fixing the problem.

K9 states that "I'm putting her in places" or "situations". These "situations" as such are just me walking down the street or around the park.

I'd also like to know a few ways to either assert myself or test "who's the boss".

She sits, stays, comes, begs, wait for her dinner, sits for the lead.

I guess I do let her through doors first sometimes, and she walks both in behind and in frount.

Also, what affect will it have if I approach the other dog? is that likely to set her off or show her it's ok?

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Until this situation has been sorted out it is best not to socalise her as it will just get worse and in the end will result in a serious dog fight whether it is your dog that gets hurt or someone elses.

Socalisation is a very necessary tool to training, but until you can be one hundred percent sure that your girl will not be dominant to other dogs and potentially cause a fight then she shouldn't be socalised with other dogs. That is not to say that you shouldn't excercise her, just keep her on lead and away from other dogs. If other people ask if their dog can play with yours say no for now as this will just make the situation even worse.

I would definately recommend you contact K9 and set up a private lesson with him where he can start helping you address the issues that you have. It will take a lot of work and training but it can be done. The only other option is for you to keep her away from other dogs permanently and this is not really practical and wont be much fun for you or her and also just avoiding the issue.

If you do a search of NILIF (Nothing in life is free) on this forum and also have a look at K9's website and it will give you a few more ideas. By adopting the nothing in life is free method this is asserting your authority as leader of the pack (being the boss) and she will have no doubt who the leader is. The key to this as with any training is consistency. You can't let her get away with anything "sometimes" otherwise soon she will think that she can do whatever she wants.

I know how it feels to have problems with your dogs, I have a 9 year old beagle that has some issues too but am going to a great training club (ADT in Melb) and we are slowly addressing these with great results so far.

Anne

[Missey's Mum]

Unfortunately, K9 force is inconvenient for me to get to, back to my original request, any recommendations in the Sydney CITY area?

I don't drive.

[Steve K9Pro]

KK:

And aside from nilif, what else can be done to assert leadership?

K9: there are many ways fr this to happen, but as we would be talking how to restructire a pack, it's a little dangerous to give out advice on this topic witholut first evaluating the dog. The right advice on the wrong dog can get you bit.

MM:

Then I'm a little confused, I thought socialising was good.

K9: socialisation is great, but taking him to a park & him getting into fights isnt socialisation.

Socialisation is introducing your dog to something new teaching it has a positive or zero value, maintenance is when the dog is socialised & you keep reinforceing the positiv or zero value, not add negative experiences...

MM:

I thought it would be worse to keep her away from dogs.

Should I cross the road when I see another dog coming? or just let have quick sniff and keep going?

K9: you should avoid every other dog until your dog is evaluated & on a program or your travelling further away from a cure.

Your dog has a learned experience that he can fight other dogs successfully, that will need to be dealt with.

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Sorry Missey's mum I'm in Melbourne and am not familiar with trainers in sydney but there are heaps of people here that are from sydney. Maybe post a new topic asking for suggestions for good trainers/clubs in the Sydney area and also check out the RNSWCC pages, they should have a list of dog trainers and obedience clubs in that area.

here's the web address for the RNSWCC www.rnswcc.org.au

Hope everything goes well for you and your dog

Anne

Edited December 2, 2005 by Cheyenne_Fury

[Missey's Mum]

What about the dogs that she currently gets along with? I assume it still ok for her to talk to them?

I will attempt to keep her away from other dogs for a while, but occassionally you can come across dogs unexpectantly.

For example, she was waiting for me at the shop the other day and when I can out this poodle was sitting alongside her with no problems.

So, if she does meet a dog and doesn't fight, do i praise her?

and do I scold her if she does fight? does saying "no" or shaking my finger (she hates that) help at times like that?

[Erny]

Speak to Steve Austin @ Hanrob Kennels - is he any closer to you, MM?

[Missey's Mum]

I've got Olga from Dogtech coming tomorrow, I'm a little excited and hope things go well.

I've been working with Missey over the past few weeks and trying to take more control when we go for walks, and it seems to be working well.

We have had no mishaps since, and I even took her to stay at a friends house who has three dogs and she even went so far as to make friends with one of them and played constantly. They was a growl or two over food but no pouncing, or wrestling or humping.

Here's a photo of Missey and Bear playing taken with my crappy phone - but look, she isn't on top of him!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: some people aremnt big fans, search Dog Tech in this forum & see what others have to say.

here is one

[Missey's Mum]

Olga from Dog Tech came today, and I was happy enough with my consultation.

She has confirmed Missey is very dominant (Missey even gave her a bit of a run for our money) and I was put on similar steps to to link above.

She explained her reason well and answered my questions and most of the steps are things I originally tried to put in place but became slack with (ie, she wasn't allowed on the lounge when she was a puppy and now I let her jump up) so I'm not too unhappy.

I was a bit concerned the methods would not be tailored to meet us, and was concerned about the "no walks for two weeks" as I live in an apartment, but she said I could take her out for short walks down to the corner for wee's and poo's, I just can't take her to the park or anything.

I have to leave her outside of a day now, that's also a bit of a concern because I originally began to leave her inside due to her howling when I started back at work after being off few months, so I'm not sure how long the neighbours will put up with it and i hope this just doesn't start a whole new bunch of issues

I also have to teach her a hand command for sitting because she wasn't listening to me when I spoke, but I'm not sure how that will help, because she was ignoring me, she knows what sit means, now she has to learn something else. I understand saying sit 3 times is useless, but isn't making the same hand gesture 3 times useless too?

She didn't do very well on the lead in the courtyard either, but I've never put her on a lead out there before, she never gives me those kind of troubles when we're on a walk. The poor thing looked very confused and upset this morning.

I still think she listens to me better when we're inside rather than out, but I guess this is what I have to work on - her listening no matter where we are.

I feel a little bad because she yawned and I was told this was stress, and the poor thing does this a lot. I feel terrible I caused my dog stress.

I just went and spent $100 of a mix of chewy treats and a few new toys to try keep her happy now that she's spending time outside, although, from what I understand, she just sat in the sun all day long anyway - she just doesn't like being locked out.

So I'll stick to the program for the two weeks, and see what happens, I don't think it can hurt her, just my neighbours ears. I had a chat to the building manager so he was aware that I'm aware and gave him my numbers, should probably do a letterbox drop as well, it's a large block (over 100) so I can't just talk to them all, and my courtyard/balcony sticks out from the building, so it will be so obvious if they are trying to find where the culprit is. I could see her looking up at someone this morning, so I imagine someone had already been annoyed within 1/2 hour.