Good Veg/bad Veg ?

[KismetKat]

What vegies are good and what should be avoided? I know onion should be avided, and I've heard potatoe isn't good either. Also peas and corn. But perhaps this info is wrong?

My dog eats cooked veg (mainly pumpkin and celery plus maybe beans and broc and sweet potatoe if it is leftover from dinner or starting to wilt in the fridge). I heard somewhere that oil is good so add a splosh to the cooking water.

I know many follow BARF here but when I got her a) I didn't know about it and b) suspect I woulda found grinding up raw veg more onerous that cooking up the batches that I do. She's very healthy and fit and has a glossy coat.

She has fresh meat (meat and veg are both human grade). Casserole steak diced - 1.5 kilos lasts about 7-8 days - is that enough fresh meat? She also has a quarter of a marrow bone once a week.

For 'dinner' she has a small handful of complete dry food.

She's a medium dog weighing about 12 kilos.

[espinay2]

What vegies are good and what should be avoided?

Onions are really the only real no-no, and most others are fine in moderation. I would feed everything raw except potatos (they have to be pulped or cooked to be digested. My preference is to raw and pulped if you are giving them on purpose but if you have a few leftover cooked veggies, then go right ahead. Remember dogs are carnivores so veggies only make up a very small portion of the diet. Emphasis should be on leafy greens. Members of the nightshade family are best fed in small amounts, particularly if the dog suffers from arthritis.

I heard somewhere that oil is good so add a splosh to the cooking water.

Essential fatty acids, in particular the Omega 3's are good. What you are after is the healthy fats. Cooked fats (fats subjected to heat) are not good so adding oil when cooking is IMO not the way to go. If you want to provide healthy fats in the diet, a good way to provide it is fish oil capsules.

suspect I woulda found grinding up raw veg more onerous that cooking up the batches that I do

Personally I rarely feed veg - only when I have leftovers or want to clean a few veg out of the crisper. Veg is not essential for the dog and is perhaps the least important part of the diet - the feed it if you want but you dont have to part. IMO much too much attention tends to go on veg and unfortunately it drags peoples attention away from other much more important facets of the diet.

It takes next to no time to feed my dogs. Admittedly I have been doing this for about eleven years so have my routine worked out, but for the average person with one or two dogs, once you get the notion that keeping it simple rather than overcomplicating things makes life a lot easier for you and often is better for the dog you are set It is of course a shift from the 'scientifically formulated' scaremongering we are bombarded with by commercial dog food companies to a different way of thinking, but once you make that step, it is plain sailing.

[KismetKat]

thanks espin.

so would you be feeding more meat than me and less veg?

as to oil - it's good olive oil (and just a dollop) - is that a bad oil cooked?

and I admit that i do feed the small handful of complete just to cover myself

[espinay2]

so would you be feeding more meat than me and less veg?

Personally I would be adding more raw MEATY bones (bones with a good cover of meat where the bone can be eaten as well) and organ meats (liver, kidney, heart etc)

as to oil - it's good olive oil (and just a dollop) - is that a bad oil cooked?

Olive oil is very low in omega 3 and contains only a little more omega 6 EFA's. EFA's are destroyed by heat (as well as air and light) so even the small amount of EFA in it will likely be useless if cooked (if not already compromised by storage in an opened clear glass bottle on a shelf). Olive oil can have its plusses and it is certainly one of the 'better' oils but it is not a direct substitute for fish or flax seed oil when it comes to EFA's.

[KismetKat]

espin - i was a bit worried about giving her too many bones as

1) i was told they could bind her up (poo wise), and

2) marrow bones were very fatty and could make her fat.

what sort of bones should I ask the butcher for?

(mind you she tend to bury them for a few days before chomping on them)

[Purple Julie]

"Soft bones" are what you want. Bones that are not weight bearing bones of the larger animals (Chicken legs are fine though)

You can get chicken carcasses, wings, drumsticks, thighs, whole chickens, chicken necks. Any part of chicken is fine.

Lamb flaps, lamb necks, beef/pork soup bones are good too.

What state/city are you in?

[espinay2]

1) i was told they could bind her up (poo wise),

Poos tend to be firmer, crumblier and have less smell. They tend to go white on the reasonably very quickly. Provided sufficient muscle meat and organ meats are provided as part of the diet (remember I said raw MEATY bones) then this is not an issue. Yes, the poos will likely be harder at times, but this is a good cleanout for the system. A little straining is fine. IF they are having too much difficulty though, just add a little more muscle meat/organ meats to the diet.

2) marrow bones were very fatty and could make her fat.

Raw MEATY bones are not marrow bones. Marrow bones are hard weight bearing bones that are often left unconsumed by dogs/wolves in the wild. Much too easy to break a tooth on, particularly when artificial edges are created by cutting them encouraging dogs to chew on the hard bone rather than the softer joint ends. When provided as part of a regular diet Raw MEATY bones will only make her fat if you feed too much. Some types are certainly more fatty than others (you can see the fat - it is white and attached to the muscle meat), but just go easy on these types or pull some of the fat off before feeding.

Some of the things you can feed as raw MEATY bones include:

Chicken frames, wings, necks, or pieces. Even whole chickens or those cut in half are fine depending on the size of your dog.

Lamb flaps, 'offcuts' and necks (whole, not sliced up except for very small dogs or cats)

Beef Brisket bones, oxtails (whole, not sliced up except for very small dogs or cats) or other bones such as pieces of backbone depending on the size of the dog

Turkey necks or other parts of the turkey if available

Kangaroo Tails

Duck pieces, quarters or frames

Rabbit pieces or whole rabbit depending on size of dog (or cat)

Pork trotters, hocks, necks or 'tails' (usually contain part of the backbone)

Goat pieces or venison/deer pieces if you have them available

[KismetKat]

espin - as she hasn't grown up dealing with chicken frames - I would be worried about how she would handle the little bones.

But I will certainly ask my butcher for some 'meaty' ones for her.

as to the marrow ones - I DO get them off her after a while.

One thing I have to be careful of is the cat getting to such things - he's old and on a prescription diet - anythingelse upsets his tummy (in a VERY ugly way )

thanks for your help.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

The important things with feeding bones are firstly that they're RAW and never cooked and secondly that they are MEATY. Use a wide variety of bones including poultry, lamb, beef, pork if it doesn't upset your dog, roo, rabbit. Use different types of bones including poultry legs/wings/carcasses (frames)/necks, lamb necks, beef or lamb ribs, brisket pieces, trotters/hooves if your dog likes them, and flap (ribs with muscle meat still attached).

You can also feed some muscle meat in addition to the RMBs. I occasionally feed some chicken breast or beef casserole pieces depending on price.

[CK9]

Espinay2 wrote:

Yes, the poos will likely be harder at times, but this is a good cleanout for the system. A little straining is fine.

Can I not agree with that? Like for human you don't like having a hard time to poo well same thing for the dog and as for being good cleanout I don't agree with that either because that means that the poo stay inside longer and I'm sorry but this is waste and it has to come out.

[espinay2]

as she hasn't grown up dealing with chicken frames - I would be worried about how she would handle the little bones.

Many people switch their dogs to raw at a later age, even after a lifetime of eating commercial foods only. The book 'switching to raw' may provide you with some guidance: www.switchingtoraw.com also see the following article by the books author: http://b-naturals.com/Jun2002.php

Can I not agree with that? Like for human you don't like having a hard time to poo well same thing for the dog and as for being good cleanout I don't agree with that either because that means that the poo stay inside longer and I'm sorry but this is waste and it has to come out.

Not a hard time - but a firm stool is not a problem and IMO much less of a problem than soft stuff that just plops out. Bone is good fibre. http://www.rawmeatybones.com/ChalkWhite.html

As for staying in longer, faeces consisting of meaty bones/meat actually on average traverses the digestive tract in much less time (4 to 7 hours on average from start to finish) than food which contains grains (eg commercial foods) as they are much more easily digested.

[CK9]

Espinay2: This is dated from may 1996(9 years ago) is there any research done about chalky white dog poo and black dog poo if they can both contaminate human with Salmonella. I mean if the dog ate contaminated food(salmonella)(barf, cook or kibbles). Poo is still poo no matter if it's green, black, yellow, white it's still poo.

[espinay2]

is there any research done about chalky white dog poo and black dog poo if they can both contaminate human with Salmonella.

I guess if you picked it up in your bare hands and then touched your mouth without washing them in between either could result in problems . Basic hygiene principles apply when handling the faeces of ANY animal.

Tom Lonsdale's press release was partly tounge in cheek (Tom is a vet - a veterinary dental specialist). You may want to read some of the info on the rest of his website: www.rawmeatybones.com .

I note that you are in Canada and perhaps by your replies do not feed raw meat and bones? Feeding raw meat and bones is VERY common here in Australia (and is becoming moreso in the US and Canada as well as elsewhere). I have been feeding a totally raw diet for eleven years now and many more herabouts have been feeding this way just as long and longer. There are some very good and well referenced articles at this link that you may find interesting if you want to read more on the concepts: http://b-naturals.com/newsindex.php

[CK9]

I know many people that feed Barf and raw meaty bones here in Canada, I know about lots of study Dodds and Wynn study, Crissey Swanson Lintzwnich Brewer Slifka study, Silver Frazier Mauel Styler study, Kintner study, Stone Chengappa Oberst Babbert McVey Hennessat study, Newman Veith study, Pottenger study.....

I'm sorry but I always question where the info is coming from, I love nutrition and I'm very open about any type of feeding.

[KismetKat]

just back to the meaty bones - how long does it take a dog to chomp on one? (approx that is).

She has her main meal in the morning, so if it's gunna take a while I think I could only schedule them in on weekends.

[katetk]

Depends on the dog i would say. He is a thread about lamb neck.. Lamb Necks My boy would take AGES to fully eat one.. others are gone in a matter of mins.. so i guess it depends on the dog.

[espinay2]

Depends. Some take virtually no time at all and some take longer. It can depend on the dog too (size and eating style). Some of mine take only a minute or less to eat a chicken frame, some take two but never much longer than that. Other things like big kangaroo tails or larger beef backbone pieces etc can take them up to 15 to 20 minutes or so. Rememebr these are actual meals, not additions to meals. I feed my dogs once a day in the evenings although it wouldn't be that hard to feed in the mornings if I wanted to. Just the way I do things.

[KismetKat]

My dog isn't a 'greedy' dog - she doesn't gobble her food or harrass me for it. Not that she fusses or takes her time either. She just, well, eats. She's also got a small head for her frame - and having seen her with her marrow bones suspect it would take her a while to 'eat' a meaty bone - that is if she doesn't go off and bury it first to let it get more 'tasty'. With the marrow bones she will give them a lick, maybe ignore them for a while (they are cut in quarters so the marrow is open to her) maybe go back, have a bit of a chomp, and then bury it for later.

Hmm, that makes me think of another question. Is she likely to bury a meaty bone if it is her dinner (or in my case breakfast)???

I swapped her to main meal in the morning as she was often waking me in the night to go to the toilet (no doggy dooor). Mind you she now stays in the house for up to 6 hours with no accidents on my work days. But I HAVE taken her to the park early. The problem with night-time elimination is letting her out she is more interested in possums than doing her business.

With the morning meal and my schedule, i suspect if it is going to take her more than 10 mins to eat her dinner it may have to be a weekend thing. I will get her a meaty bone for sunday and see what she does.

[KismetKat]

I was finally at the butcher today (but hadn't written down a list from this thread) so I asked him for a meaty bone and he said, umm, well what I think he gave me is a cow's back leg! But as it is so long he cut it into four for me. He said it was hard for butchers to get all the meat of this sort of bone.

Is this a good sort of 'meaty' bone (cos its not one specifically mentioned) and is one quarter of one (remember he chopped it into 4) enough for a 12 kilo medium dog?

EDIT TO AD:

On closer inspection now I've bagged it - it looks like backbone to me. He's chopped it into 8 so i figure she'll need two.

Edited November 25, 2005 by KismetKat

[Purple Julie]

I wouldn't recommend cow legs, as they are weight bearing bones, so they aren't able to be crunched through. They are what are often called 'recreational bones'.

If it is a beef backbone...Well, I have just started Jyra on beef backbone today, and I found that she was able to eat most of it, but there were some bits of bone that were too hard for her to break. She'll get the remaining portions of this backbone until it is finished, but I won't be buying any more backbones.

With regard to how much you should be feeding your dog, it should be 2-3% of her body weight. Jyra weighs 30kg and she gets 600-640g a day (ideally, but in reality it varies from 500-800g and hopefully balances out!).

I don't know how much your portions weigh, so I can't say how many to give your dog. She weighs 12kg, so I'd say 240-300g roughly would be an appropriate amount for your dog. Of course, saying that, if you fed this and your dog kept losing weight, or gaining weight, you'd change the amount of food accordingly.

Kismet Kat, what state or city do you live in? We could suggest good butchers if we knew where you were near.