arianwen Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 A lady called me about a dog that she was given after the owners simply upped and moved to England. He is fully papered. I am not a fan of his breeder to say the least and most people arent. He is also intact. They were told he has a great personality and on the surface it seems like it. They have three children, 9, 11 and 14. He came from a place where he was left outside with another larger dog and never allowed inside or paid much attention at all. IMO he has never been taught how to interact with humans. I was called in to do a temperament assessment. This dog is the most agressive DOG OF ANY BREED I have ever seen, other than dogs trained to be so. He is completely dominant over everyone and has no problem with asserting his dominance with physical agression. While I was there I was mauled, but I was prepared for it and restrained him quickly. Anything he doesnt like (and that changes all the time) he will let them know by not just biting, but full on mauling. He is also fear agressive. To make matters worse, the entire family are afraid of him and when he growls or shows his teeth they withdraw immediately and are out of there quick smart. Their behaviour is telling him that his course of action is the right one to get what he wants. They confirm this, as he wasnt as bad when they first got him. They have bites all over them and they are SERIOUS bites for such a small dog. He draws blood and has left perminant damage. He mauled me because I tried to examine him. My assessment was that (knowing his lineage) it was genetic but largely environmental/learned. This dog would take a lot of work for the most experienced person to deal with, but these people are nervy and inexperienced. I think it is way beyond them. My advice was to have him euthanised as this dog is just way too dangerous to have around children and with all the beautiful rescues out there no rescue org has time to work on a liability. Anyone have advice? Anyone want to take on such a dog? Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zia's Nuthouse Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 aww what a shame, for the people and the dog I don't know everything thats for sure, but I think if in your position I would have suggested the same. lets face it he wouldn't have passed temp testing in a shelter would he? So would be unsuitable for adoption. I understand sometimes its hardest to make the hardest decisions or suggestions Someone here though with experience with this might be able to help I wish them all the luck, and for the pooch too Zia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I'm sure someone will recommend a behaviourist seeing him, but it will take quite a bit of work from the family also, if they are not prepared to put so much work into him, maybe someone on here would want to take him to K9 Force etc and then do the training involved with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 (edited) Arianwen .... are you a qualified Canine Behaviourist? It sounds not, or I'd doubt you'd be posting this question here. Assuming not, then my answer would be for these people to engage the services of one and base their decision on the information and/or suggestions from that reputable behaviourist. This, IMO, is not a question answerable by those on DOL who don't have the opportunity to assess the dog and the situation themselves. By what you have written, it sounds pretty serious - although I don't think you've written how long the behaviour has existed, nor how old the dog is now. Has a medical check been undertaken to rule out any physical/mental deterioration? Either way, it sounds to me as if this dog does require more assertive handling and even under the advisement and tuition of a behaviourist, alot will depend on whether they can give it. That they have children is another grave concern. It sounds as though they should act VERY QUICKLY, too. Edited November 14, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zia's Nuthouse Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I'm sure someone will recommend a behaviourist seeing him, but it will take quite a bit of work from the family also, if they are not prepared to put so much work into him, maybe someone on here would want to take him to K9 Force etc and then do the training involved with him? Good suggestion Phatdex Lets keep our fingers crossed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arianwen Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 (edited) Arianwen .... are you a qualified Canine Behaviourist? There are qualifications!? *LMAO* Serious questions, when I was in training there were none. I have a cert III in an. hus, inc. behaviour. Not that that matters. I do however have a lot of experience with this line and know just how aggressive they can be. I lived with one for ten years.... I have already suggested they see a professional trainer... I told them it would be expensive and he will need specialist care. Not to mention the dog is too dangerous to stay with them, it is too risky with the children involved. I told them my recommendations would be completely different if they didnt have kids. They are not keen on a trainer. You see, this dog was dumped on them basically, with the assertion "oh, he cost us about $600, he is intact, so if you find a nice little girl dog you could breed them and make money..." !!!!!!!! I didnt really ask a question... there is no doubt this dog is majorly aggressive. What I want to know is if someone is willing to help these people, I thought perhaps this was the place to ask for help The dog can not stay there and they dont have the money to board him out and have him trained. The dog is three years old and the behaviour has existed the entire time they have had him. They were not told of any prior behavioural problems. They have not taken him to the vet, he is too dangerous! Serious! I recommended my vet and that I would help and give discounted veterinary treatment. I left her to think about it. I told her her possible courses of action... - continue on as is with risk to people - have him desexed and seen to by a professional trainer, a risk still considering there will be no quick fix for this boy and children are still involved. - find a professional trainer willing to take him on - have him put to sleep I forgot to say that I was examining him for a physical reason he might be reacting... there appears to be none, he is in superb condition and would be very competitive at a dog show! To answer future questions on that... no I am not a vet! I have been a vet nurse. But that is why I recommended veterinary assessment. I am not going to take him on, I have a child and I have too many high maintainance dogs already. Edited November 14, 2005 by arianwen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I think he should be rehomed given that they have children to consider. You could try the rescue forum but he would have to be desexed, but he definately should be anyway. Like Erny said, it's not really posible to give a decent assessment of the dog and chances of rehabilitation without seeing him, but unless you find a trainer or experienced handler willing and able to take him on, the only really responsible course of action i can see is to have him euthanised. Hopefully it doesn't come to that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Its easy for people to say see a trainer or pay for a professional but at the end of the day they have children have been bitten and probably werent really wanting the dog to begin with. You say you know the line for having similar issues so it may have some genetic tendencies who knows without seeing the dog. I think you have given them good information and if they choose to have him put to sleep then so be it it may save a chaild losing an eye or being scarred for life. As for taking him on which i think is what you are hoping to find someone with the experience and time to work with him its a pretty big ask when there are so many wondeful dogs with great temprements needing homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vizsla Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 If the dog is such a high risk of biting someone, It would be very foolish and neglegent for any rescue to rehouse this dog. Maybe worth having a veterinary check and also having someone else also do a temp assessment. If he fails that, IMHO the rainbow bridge would be the best place for this fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 If the dog is such a high risk of biting someone, It would be very foolish and neglegent for any rescue to rehouse this dog.Maybe worth having a veterinary check and also having someone else also do a temp assessment. If he fails that, IMHO the rainbow bridge would be the best place for this fella. A dog that mauls and has bitten repeatedly? There are just too many beautiful dogs with solid temperaments being killed daily to risk a rescue rehoming this dog IMO. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arianwen Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 As for taking him on which i think is what you are hoping to find someone with the experience and time to work with him its a pretty big ask when there are so many wondeful dogs with great temprements needing homes. My thoughts exactly. The reason I am posting is because I promised I would ask if someone wanted him. He is not at all suitable for rehoming (I do QLD Tibbie Rescue and that is why she contacted me, so I could rescue him. If he came into my care I would have him PTS)... but there was always a chance that an experienced trainer out there might like a nutty tibbie as a pet! *L* She was so upset... This dog is amazing... he is like a wild animal. Seriously. You can only interact with him if he wants you to and only to a small extent. Sometimes you can rough him up and sometimes you put your hand near him and he snaps. He is amazingly bad... no words for it really. If someone would like to go around and see him I will try to arrange that. Really, you have to see it to believe it. When the lady gave him a schmacko, she pulled it out of the packaging and he jumped to try to snatch it out of her hand and she pulled it away... he growled! He growled and tried to bite her! Every time he jumped up at her to get it and she pulled it away he would snarl and bite at her. Then when she finally gave it to him he savaged her hand!! He growled and savaged her hand while removing the treat. I asked her if she is able to take his food bowl off him... she said "NO! I wouldnt dare! That is the first time that he bit me, when I tried to remove his food. You arent meant to be able to take food away from a dog anyway, are you?" I told her quite the opposite! You should be able to remove food from any good dog and it should be taught to ALL dogs from day one! Whatever happens, the dog needs to get out of there. They are not experienced enough and dont understand that their behaviour is making it worse. I feel so sorry for the dog... but it is so dangerous with children around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arianwen Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 Just so you know, bit of info about me and where I am coming from... -been breeding & showing tibs for ten + years. -did cert III in an. hus. -worked as a veterinary nurse for a while. -worked at the RSPCA for a while. -been a groomer for a while. -worked for the council in animal division... saw many many dogs from gorgeous temperaments to savage nasty creatures. -have done rescue for years -have done obedience (not competitive) I am not a professional trainer or behaviourist, I was just doing a temperament assessment for rescue purposes (because rescue people have to do those to assess a dogs rehomability), I am sorry if my use of the term 'temperament assessment' offended people. I didnt mean it in a professional trainer/behaviourist way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 your doing a fantastic job and some dogs are beyound the average family. You also have to consider other dogs id say send him down here lol but no way would i have a dog that reactive on the same premises as my boy yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 They are not keen on a trainer.You see, this dog was dumped on them basically, with the assertion "oh, he cost us about $600, he is intact, so if you find a nice little girl dog you could breed them and make money..." !!!!!!!! K9: if the people who currently own the dog are not keen on fixing the problem, due to whatever reason, money, time etc, then there is no hope with this family. Move the dog or euthanise it. If your diagnosis is correct, this dog should be islolated in a pen from the family for two weeks, with only food & water & not even as much as eye contact in between. This dratsic removal of resources often shocks the dog down a few places in the pack. When he comes out he can be reassessed, I have worked with a large number of dogs like this, with a very high success rate, but success only came as the owners were keen on keeping the dog at all costs. Tess: A dog that mauls and has bitten repeatedly? There are just too many beautiful dogs with solid temperaments being killed daily to risk a rescue rehoming this dog IMO. K9: having that said, there are many starving people in the world due to over population, lets have a good war & cull some out... I feel the dog deserves treatment, it didnt choose to end up this way. In theory, if your dog needs any type of training, there is probably a dog in a pound somewhere that doesnt, kill yours & get that one. A dog home isnt created by killing one dog & getting another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 very good advice K9. Arienwen, maybe u can take him and do this isolation thing? Would be great to see him rehbilitated and a brand new dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 At your risk K9....not too many rescue groups would or could risk it. And in rescue, it IS about who is worth saving unfortunately. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 At your risk K9....not too many rescue groups would or could risk it. K9: from what I read, this was a pet owner that had soght advice / help from the poster, noit a rescue group. Also, none of my clients have been bitten when following my programs as instructed. And in rescue, it IS about who is worth saving unfortunately. K9: & often its about $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 (edited) And in rescue, it IS about who is worth saving unfortunately. And that was the point about my first post ..... without a chance, it's impossible to determine if the dog's not worth saving .... Edited November 15, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 K9": I agree Erny, some dogs have made a massive turn around far faster than anyone would forsee. What I suggested does require a pen, but there is zero risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Good luck to the person who takes on the dog. The OP seems wise enough to handle the situation. ;) Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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