Vegetarian Dogs

[Cavalier]

That was just a general statement used to make a point.

I do live in the country and as I said, my very lazy Cavalier could not be bothered taking on a magpie

[Georgie-boy]

Ok before I say anymore, I have been trained in nutrition and within 12 months will be a vet, so I am not going to be consulting my vet on this topic.

My apologies - had you given more information in your initial post I would not have made the mistake of mentioning this. Unfortunately my crystal ball is broken and I actually felt quite offended by this comment.

On a general note - if you already have all the information and are trained in nutrition and almost a qualified vet and intent on feeding your dog a vegetarian diet - then why was there a need to post in the first place?

Best wishes to you.

[Working_Setters]

There is a a vegan cat and a vegan dog commercial diet which has been tested and approved by AFFCO. No animal cruelty involved!

Cavalier - congratulations on the nearing culmination of years of hard study, I occasionally wish I'd chosen vet science over medical research.

If you've the time some day might I respectively suggest you read "Blood Ties" by Ted Kerasote. Kerasote argues (and I agree) there is no such thing as human life without animal death. With the price paid by the ecosystem for fossil fuel extraction, combined with land clearing, pesticides use, and modern harvesting techniques (cutting down crops in which animals are feeding and nesting) mean that crops grown on an industrial scale are far from "blood free". Vegetarians organically growing their own food probably do the least harm to the environment, but vegetarians buying goods shipped in do more harm than those that hunting animals for food locally because of the fossil fuel costs. Anyhow, I’m a long way off topic, so I’ll shut up now.

It is an interesting book if you ever get the chance

http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/bldties.htm

http://www.kerasote.com/books.html#bloodties

Edited November 12, 2005 by Working_Setters

[t-time]

You are able to buy taurine which has been synthesised using bacterial recombinant DNA.

Why the the hell would you go to these lengths?

Just feed the damn cat MEAT! It's not that hard!! As WS pointed out, the amount of energy required to buy these products is actually neglible to the environment in the grand scheme of things. Large scale agriculture is killing our ecosystems.

WHY? WHY? Just feed your dog and cat as close to their natural diet as possible. If your cat goes vege it'll sure as heck be hunting for food rather than sport! OK. Cavie is going to be a little different!

As nearly a vet, with an interest in Nutrition, you should be able to see how far our pets have gone from a "natural" diet. (Even with thousands of years of domestic breeding :p And the dietary-related problems commercial diets have caused (tooth decay, obesity amongst others) and benefitted (improved nutrition with vitamins as compared to leftover,cooked meat and 3 vege!).

What are you PREPARED to feed your dog/cat? I mean, really, you could supplement with CARDBOARD if you wanted - would fill your dog up like most of the extenders that are in commercial mixes. And let's not forget that unless you are feeding a proper BARF diet, all the commercial preparations are PROCESSED.

Like, naturally speaking, there were no BBQs......

In the end "What are you prepared to feed?" - that's what feeding comes down to for most owners. It grossness factor, it's ideology, it's finances, it's time.

"What is the very BEST diet for the ANIMAL?" Will probably be something very different to the above.

Me, I feed raw with a couple of bikkies in here or there without prejudice :p Sometimes, I don't have the time to grate carrot and pulp things - for my own juice let alone the dog! - so the dogs will get a few bikkies on that morning.

I grow my own organically fed meat chickens to supplement my own diet and my dogs' meat.

BIG DEAL!! That's how much time I've got when I go and kill a chook just for the dogs. Mind you, I kill it because otherwise the dogs would be off to kill every other chook around! My dogs do hunt things though! (You could grow chooks for your dogs to eat as well!)

It's the genetic engineering in order to feed your animal because you want it to be a vegetarian like you, which gets to me. It's all getting so bloody complicated and to what end?

Regardless of how you wish to feed your animals, Cavalier, I hope that when you are a vet, you do not try to promote vegetarianism for owners generally. It does require a lot of forethought, nutrition info and brains, to keep an animal healthy on a vege diet. Most owners would not be up to the task of feeding more than a can or a bag of something (And that is not a reflection on any DOLers, just the common uneducated pet owner)

Remember this thread and look up the other debates here about vege diets. Regardless of your opinions, there are many and they are all valid because if you think about it, what people are saying is how they actually feed their animals. Nutritionally speaking, this is valuable information for you in the future. :p

[Rappie]

Well, its 33 days until I graduate as a vet and I have finished all my formal education. I'm just sitting tight for the next 12 days until I can be registered......

I accept the reasons that people feed BARF, I've read the books and although I don't agree with ALL of the information present, I do think with the addition of time and dedication on the part of the owner that it's a perfectly reasonable way to feed animals. That said, I think the best thing to feed our pets is that food which is most viable for the owners, for the majority the best you can do is suggest a premium dry over PAL.

People who feed BARF do it because they feel it is best for their animals, and biologically, probably is (when done well). IMHO people who try to feed an omnivore a vegetarian diet are then inflicting their own *personal* beliefs and morals and an animal that has no defense to that. Feeding a vegetarian diet to an obligate carnivore is something that I wouldn't even contemplate - I remember being an innocent by stander when a fellow intern dared ask two of the finest feline specialists in Australia if cats could be fed a vegan diet (because the client had asked her, and the intern had already said no). The room just about erupted in flames, let me tell you that.

Cavalier, I would think about the points that you made it your post a little further up the page and go back and think back objectively, like a vet, about the health benefits you mentioned and consider whether human data can really be extrapolated as such.

[espinay2]

I thought I would post this here for any vets or soon to be vets who may be on the list. If they wish to discuss the feeding of a raw/BARF diet with other vets there is an email list specifically for veterinary professionals (note - non vets please do not attempt to join it is a restricted list). www.yahoogroups.com/groups/rawvet is a place where vets can discuss professionally the ins and outs of a raw diet both in general and in relation to the practice of veterinary medicine. There are vets from all over the world on the list including those from Australia, the US, UK, Scandanavia and Europe.

Some reading too for those who only trust the word of vets:

"Give Your Dog a Bone", "Grow your Pups with Bones" and "the BARF diet" are by Australian Vet Ian Billinghurst.

"Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health" which is a more technical publication for those interested in the science is by veterinary dental specialist Dr Tom Lonsdale. He also has a new book out called "Work Wonders"

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I'm rather shocked that someone who is 12 months away from becoming a qualified vet is prepared to risk her own dog's health for principles or ethics by removing meat from the diet.

I'm vegetarian, becoming vegan (it's a gradual transition b/c that is the way I've chosen to go) and I would NEVER purposely stop feeding meaty bones and other animal products to my dogs. It's irresponsible, IMO to do such a thing when the canine is designed to eat animal products.

It's one thing to trumpet animal welfare and object to cruelty (and I do both in small ways and large), but it's completely another thing to force your idealogy on another creature that you are supposed to be protecting and nurturing.

'Nuff said from me or I'll get cranky on the dog's behalf b/c said dog doesn't have a voice of its own in this.

[Cavalier]

Georgie-boy - I was not trying to attack you. No need to take offence I posted this topic because I hoped I could talk to someone who has fed their dog a vegetarian diet.

t-time - Why would I go to those lengths? Because I have very strong beliefs and wish to uphold a a certain ethical standard in my life. Once again, my choice.

As for what I will recommend to my clients. I will be recommending they feed a high quality balanced commercial diet (Eukanuba, Hills, Advance etc). Most people do not have the knowledge, time etc to feed a balanced home made diet and it can lead to many health problems in the hands of the inexperienced.

Working Setters - Thankyou for your informative post. I will be sure to read the book. Totally agree with you about large scale farming and how much damage to the environment and the death of animals it causes.

Rappie - congrats for getting through the vet course! There have been very limited studies of the effect of a vegetarian diet of the health of dogs and this is a topic I intend to explore when I do my very contraversial PhD! I realise extrapolating from human data is not always reliable but most scientific knowledge is gained through extrapolation and experimentation.

Before this topic gets out of hand lets all just take a deep breath

If I am able to formulate and feed a balanced vegetarian diet to my dogs, which they enjoy eating and has no adverse effects of their health, then why is there a problem? Just because I and others like me decide not to feed our dogs an "orthodox" doggie diet does not mean we do not care for our dogs and that we are doing the best for them.

[Cavalier]

T-time

Forgot to add, we do have chickens on our farm that we raise for eggs. They are my pets just like my dogs.

Would you kill your dog to feed your chicken? I dont think so.....

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Would you kill your dog to feed your chicken? I dont think so.....

How is this question relevant? Chickens don't eat meat.

As an aside: So, you keep chickens so you can take/use their eggs?

How is that not exploitation?

Not trying to start anything but I am curious as to the answers.

[Leema]

Amhailte - thank-you very much for your response. Exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks.

Electrawoman:

I think there is still some debate as to whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores. Personally I view dogs as a carnivore because, firstly, a dog's teeth is mainly made for eating meat. Secondly, dogs can't absorb cellulose without help - hence why if we want to feed a dog vegetables, we have to grind them to a pulp.

Though I also believe that dogs are carnivores and not omnivores, I don't believe using cellulouse as evidence for for carnivorism is valid. I doubt any person would debate whether humans are more likely to be omnivorous than carnivorous or herbivorous, yet humans lack celluslase (the ezyme for breaking down cellulose).

t-time:

Why the the hell would you go to these lengths? [of buying taurine produced by recombinant bacteria]... As WS pointed out, the amount of energy required to buy these products is actually neglible to the environment in the grand scheme of things.

As a vegetarian, I would go to the trouble because it means nothing dies except the the first bacterium that is modified for Taurine production. That's why I would consider 'going to these lengths'.

How would the amount of energy used to farm bacteria be greater than that needed to produce 'a cow'? Dependent on the bacteria used, all they require is oxygen, an appropriate pH, some warmth, you get the idea. Simple things. A cow, however, requires light energy, firstly, to produce the grass biomass. Then the cow needs to convert the grass's chemical energy to it's own biomass - most of the energy is excreted as physical waste or heat energy... A LOT of energy is loss.

That's why, theoretically, it would be more sustainable to feed the human race with plant foods than it would to be feed it as we're currenlty doing, by plant and animal foods.

lillysmum:

So, you keep chickens so you can take/use their eggs? How is that not exploitation?

Dictionary.com defines explotation as "The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage"... I do not believe that keeping chooks is employing them to 'the greatest possible advantage' - it simplly utilises their natural produce. BATTERY HENS, however, I would consider explotation, as the chickens are subjected to unnatural conditions and so are being employed to their owners advantage - to gain the most profit. This also encompasses the second definition provided by Dictionary.com: "Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes".

Again, I would like to say that my dog does not get a vegetarian diet, and I don't know my feelings towards dog vegetarianism - I just wanted to express some feelings I had whist reading these posts. ;)

[KismetKat]

I would go to the trouble because it means nothing dies except the the first bacterium that is modified for Taurine production.

Land rights for gay bacterium!

*grins and runs*

[Cavalier]

I guarantee you, chickens do eat meat. Chickens are also omnivorous. They scratch in the dirt and eat worms, beetles and dead mammals/chickens and other birds.

Until there was the BSE scare chickens, cows, sheep etc were all fed blood and bone meal to increase their growth rates.

Just a bit of trivia. There is no mammals on the face of thise planet who possesses cellulase. Ruminants and hind gut fermenters sich as horses have bacteria which produce cellulase for them. Humans and dogs also possess small numbers of these bacteria (nowhere near as many as pure herbivores).

As long as my dog is happy and healthy munching on her soy protein and panir cheese, I will continue to feed it.

[dogzbody]

Hi

I love my dogs; I would never consider feeding them a vegetarian only diet. I think that would be cruel.

I have friends who are vegetarians (I used to be vegetarian) that own dogs. They feed them meat; that is how it should be.

Ingrid Newkirk would recommend that you fed your dog greens only ;) (when she is not recommending that all dogs should be allowed to run free, free of human encumbrance).

You lot who are recommending a vegie diet for your (our) dogs; you are joking, yes?

DB

[Cordelia]

There are some rather huge concerns over the health problems caused by feeding dogs (and kids actually) Soy products.

Dogs generally should NOT be fed Soy products, especially over a long period of time.

I hope you informed your GSD puppy breeder of your intention to experiement with a vegetarian diet??

Personally... if someone told me this, no way would I allow an adoption of one of my pups or dogs to someone wishing to feed a vegie diet. Unless there is a clear medical reason to feed a herbivore diet to a carnivore, then you are forcing your morals/beliefs onto an animal that is meant to have meat.

I sincerely hope that your Cavalier remains healthy during your PHD. (and I hope that you DON'T choose to feed a vegie diet to a large breed puppy that MUST have meat and bones in it's diet in order to grow!

[dogzbody]

There are some rather huge concerns over the health problems caused by feeding dogs (and kids actually) Soy products.

Dogs generally should NOT be fed Soy products, especially over a long period of time.

I hope you informed your GSD puppy breeder of your intention to experiement with a vegetarian diet??

Personally... if someone told me this, no way would I allow an adoption of one of my pups or dogs to someone wishing to feed a vegie diet. Unless there is a clear medical reason to feed a herbivore diet to a carnivore, then you are forcing your morals/beliefs onto an animal that is meant to have meat.

I sincerely hope that your Cavalier remains healthy during your PHD. (and I hope that you DON'T choose to feed a vegie diet to a large breed puppy that MUST have meat and bones in it's diet in order to grow!

Well said

DB

[poodlefan]

Why would I go to those lengths? Because I have very strong beliefs and wish to uphold a a certain ethical standard in my life.

Good for you.

While you contemplate those beliefs, I suggest you contemplate the ethics of transferring them onto an animal who has no choice but to eat what you feed it, regardless of the nutritional or psychological benefits of the diet. Dogs gain great nutritional benefits from eating meat and seem to obtain great pleasure from chewing bones - why would you seek to deprive your dog of such nutrition and experiences because of your beliefs? Surely the best interests of the animal should dictate its diet, not its owner's interests or convenience? There's the ethical issue for me. ;)

The BSE issue was created by feeding an unnatural food (meat) to vegetarian animals - you propose to do the reverse.

There are no wild canine species that choose to eat a vegetarian diet. Canines supplement their diets with some vegetable matter but in the main they are carnivores.

I don't believe that experimenting on your own or any pet is an appropriate method of establishing whether or not a vegetarian diet is a viable one. You might like to contemplate the ethics of such a course of action from a veterinary perspective.

You want my honest advice? If you really want a vegetarian pet why not buy an animal that is naturally vegetarian? Surely that's what an ethical vegetarian would do. ;)

I was a vegetarian for many years but still fed my dogs on a raw diet. My dogs are not philosophers and I didn't believe it appropriate or ethical to inflict my own views on them. They eat what nature intended them to eat.

I hope you are upfront with breeders about your plans to feed a large breed pup a vegetarian diet. No breeder I know would willingly sell a pup to such a home. I fail to see how you can provide a dog with sufficient calcium unless it is obtained from animal sources.

Expecting animals to behave or eat like humans for philosophical reasons anthropomorphises them. I don't find anything vaguely ethical about that.

Edited November 14, 2005 by poodlefan

[Miranda]

I agree with poodlefan 100%. I am a vegetarian myself, but I feed my dogs meat and bones and would never consider feeding them a vegetarian diet. I see that you have recently purchased a large breed puppy, I am assuming that you have been ethical and advised the breeder of your intentions and to be quite honest I'm surprised that they were prepared to sell you a dog.

This topic was discussed a few months ago and I remember asking whether anyone had successfully bred and raised a litter of puppies using only foods derived from vegetarian sources and I received no responses. When someone can prove to me that they bred a vegetarian fed large or medium breed bitch and successfully reared the puppies to one year of age using no animal based products whatsoever I may change my opinions, but until then.................need I say more?

[t-time]

While you contemplate those beliefs, I suggest you contemplate the ethics of transferring them onto an animal who has no choice but to eat what you feed it, regardless of the nutritional or psychological benefits of the diet. Dogs gain great nutritional benefits from eating meat and seem to obtain great pleasure from chewing bones - why would you seek to deprive your dog of such nutrition and experiences because of your beliefs? Surely the best interests of the animal should dictate its diet, not its owner's interests or convenience? There's the ethical issue for me.

Me too

Chickens are also omnivorous.

I know they are insectivorous Would someone doing zoology or something be able to clarify? I thought only bears and.... were omniverous!

Land rights for gay bacterium!

;)

[Ripley]

A chicken is an omnivore.