Protection Training..?

[MolassesLass]

K9, is it possible to teach a dog just to "put on a show" of being aggressive (lunging, growling, barking etc) on cue, but not actually teach the dog bitework?

Anhialate - having a dog that lunges, barks, foams etc at another person would be considered dangerous by the council. How can you prove your dog will not bite if its raving like a lunatic?

I got my Bullmastiff for something that looked scary but I think it needs to be backed up with territorialness of his home. If my 60kg boy is doing butt-waggles and play bows at the door/fence he's hardly going to deter an intruder than if he was barking or at least growling.

I don't want an attack trained dog or a dog that would actually lunge out and defend me like a bodyguard in a serious situation but I do want an effective deterrant for my yard and house.

How do I encourage my Bullmastiff to want to defend his property (by barking and growling when at home) without making him a menance to normal society? Can I even train him to not welcome strangers simply by not reacting (which would be better than being inviting)? And do I have no hope if the other two dogs he lives with have no idea of territorialness?

[Kavik]

You could try teaching your dog to bark on command, and then to bark when people come to the door/fence?

Some dogs will start to put on a show as they get older on their own.

[Jintanut]

hey,

I totally agree with the opinion that you must be able to handle your dog 110%. whatever the breed. This thread has helped me learn so much. I was confused and uneducated, now im aware of some important facts.

Has anyone seen todays tele??? new laws now mean a $55'000 fine and up to a 2 yr jail sentence if your 'dangerous dog' attacks. a sign perhaps?? spooky!

Five breeds of fighting dogs will be banned, including, American pitbull, japanese tosas and 3 un-named Argintinian and Brazillian fighting dogs.

Some interesting attack figures of breeds....

top 10 breeds responsible for attacks in a 1 yr period-

cattle dogs are 1st at 85 reported attacks,

Rottweilers 2nd on 78 attacks,

German shepards on 72 attacks,

Staffords on 68 what the?? !!!!!!,

Bullterriers on 40 and, wait for it.......

Pitbull terriers on a measly 38!!!!

also reported about 120 attacks by mutts or unknown breeds...(im guessing swf!!!)

Jinta responds to my "whats that" command that puts her on alert, and barking, looking mean...i dont want to own a dog i cannot control, I have decided to stick with my little Jinta, just the 1 dog for me until I build my house. She isnt that hopeless, she looks the part, and will bark if told to.

I have found it difficult to find rentals that will accept 1 dog, let alone 2!!

Thanks for helping me reach my decision, I realize that a new pup or another dog just isnt right for me at this time. All of your opinions have helped.

I am the last person who would want to add fuel to the fire of bannning breeds or promoting dangerous dogs, or dangerous behaviours.

Im still waiting to buy my ban the deed wrist band!!!!

edited to correkt my speeling....

Edited November 13, 2005 by Jintanut

[Nekhbet]

For anyone that wants a prtective looking dog try this article:

Training the non biting dog to bark at the door/fence

Its to teach your dog to bark on command and when it hears a noise at the door or perimeter...

conversly if anyone would like to hire my bark machine for a few weeks and give my nerves a holiday you would be more then welcome. With those sonic ears no one would come within 2 blocks of your place without you knowing about it She does eat a lot though and she's going through shed so you can give her bakc when she's over making everything tan and fluffy

[arawnhaus]

Great site, been there many times,

You want barkers? be wary of neighbours the most non aggressive barker will still attract the attention of your council if it is a Rottweiler!

Many Rottweilers i have had in my care have been great yard security dogs with minimal prompting, but because people try and make them noisy they often do not want them any more, because they lacked general obedience to start with and a dog who learns to bark alot and is encouraged to do so WILL!

Cover all the basics first if you intend on purchasing a Rottweiler.

[phatdex]

re the wrist bands, DucatiBruce has gone AWOL at the moment, arent sure what has happened and he was organising them. Hopefully he is alright and returns soon!

[MolassesLass]

Oh that article sounds like just what I wanted, although I've still got plenty of time before beginning this training (Duke is only 4 months).

Thanks

[Poodle wrangler]

Don't judge me by the name and avatar. I've had bigger dogs, too.

My Ridgeback X (pound dog, now my sister's dog) and a brindle boxer would effectively deter people from going near our fences and front door.

The boxer was lean, athletic-looking and well-trained. She'd quietly walk at heel to the door with me. The dog looked menacing because she was quiet and well-behaved. Her attitude was protective, though I've got no idea what she'd do, if challenged. People would always take a step back from the door.

When someone under police chase jumped my parents' fence, the Ridgeback X ran toward him, barking, and I've never seen someone move so fast- jumped straight back over the fence and away. People step back because he jumps, barks and growls. Both are/were cuddle dogs on the lounge with us.

JMHO, but isn't a dog mostly a warning and deterrent. Why would a thief/ peeping tom/ idiot go to the bother of getting past a dog, when someone else's place doesn't have one?

It'd worry me that a trained protection dog is still no match for a bullet, if someone's ABSOLUTELY determined to get in to your home.

Addit: In defence of poodles, a neighbour had a large, black standard poodle and GSD (female). People who came to the house were more worried by the poodle as it barked louder and more aggressively. Because it looked nothing like a show dog, in his scruffy version of a pet clip, they didn't know what kind of dog it was!

[Steve K9Pro]

My concern is that you stated you don't really want another dog and that also just the look and sound of a large dog scares you. No offense but you don't really sound the perfect candidate to own a 50kg manstopper.

K9: This is an important thing to consider, when these things go off, not just the offenders get frightened, I have seen handlers stiffen & drop the leash when their dog has gone off. You cant do this...

Some people talk them selves into a gun, they have all the right reasons they feel, they have justified it to themselves & maybe family, but sometimes when they turn up & hear one fired, or hold one, they change their mind.

J:

I am physically strong for my height and weight, my work is physically demanding, how strong do you need to be to train a Rotti??? this may be where K9 comes into the picture..!!

K9: you need confidence before strength, but I would suggest looking at some working, maybe handle one under agitation before you dive in.

A:

K9, is it possible to teach a dog just to "put on a show" of being aggressive (lunging, growling, barking etc) on cue, but not actually teach the dog bitework?

K9: yes, I taught my bitch this before bitework, she would light up in command, drop the leash & she would walk over & sniff...

A:

I'm just thinking that a realistic show of aggression would probably be enough deterent for most situations, and then you wouldn't need to be concerned about the legal ramifications of owning an "attack dog"?

K9: its a good way to start this work, I also evaluate the handler in this period.

If they get their act to gether with the program, they can move to the next level if they have been slack, we dont move on.

P:

I went outside to see both my dogs at the fence with their hair on their backs all raised, my amstaff doing the growling and my shar pei doing the barking. Not being trained, does this mean if the people behind us were then to jump the fence into our backyards the dogs would do nothing?

K9: you have to realise that the body language your dogs are displaying is one of fear, they can run anytime. Or they can bite, but a bite trained dog is also taught how to bite.

Dogs that bite in defence have very poor bites, they wouldnt deter anyone with motivation.

Or u dont know until the ppl try?

K9: thats another thing you wont know, & it will change given the amount of pressure the dog is under.

Part of training is testing, so you know what will happen.

I cant see my dogs attacking anyone in a normal situation, but are they more likely to protect their backyard against intruders?

K9: yes its likely.

Nekbet

Do you have the self discipline to train this animal for 2-4 hours EVERY DAY? No exceptions, no breaks, no cutting corners, no half way. You cant go for a holiday half way for a couple of weeks and expect to place it into a kennel.

K9: I can see your point of trying to convey the seriousness of the matter, however, the training regime your speaking of is how a top level manstopper may be trained for the first 6 - 12 months.

Your average personal protection dog does not require any where near this amount of work. The threat determines the level of dog one requires...

N:

These dogs can take a few years before they are fully fledged (and even then a lot of them fail) and their training begins from DAY 1. Not, oh we'll do some obedience etc etc then start. Nope formal obedience can kill drive in some dogs because its two separate methods used.

K9: well, that again depends on the level of dog you need. There arent only 2 methods of training, so ob does not always kills drive.

N:

You have to build courage and drive in these dogs from the day they open their eyes. The first few months are critical in shaping a pup.

K9: agreed, if you need a dog trained to the highest level.

N:

Do yourself a favour. Shell out the $3000-$4000 for a fully trained personal protection dog. They are extremely well socialised, family friendly young adult dogs but are ready trained to protect when the need arises. From the day the dog comes to your home you can be sure it will do its job. If the dog does not settle in the company should provide you with a replacement.

K9: Im strictly against this for new handlers, going through the training with a trainer helps you understand how the dog works & how its best deployed.

I agree PPT is far from within the ability of a novicem but that includes handling too.

I over the years have trained many low level protection dogs that will fire up on command & cool down too, we didnt need to off leash attacks, body bites & many other aspects, they just wanted a dog that was able to do a fraction more than bark.

I think Jinta would be best with a visual deterent to begin though.

J:

I am now wondering if I can work with Jinta to help her guarding instincts, K9 may be able to answer if that is possible.

K9: this will depend on her temp, if she has the right temp, she may be able to alert on noises when at home.

This may also cause neighbour dramas so each move is to be considered.

[grotty_rotty]

Hi Jintanut,

I have had another read of this thread. Forgive me if i have missed anything but here are a few comments.

Grotty is my first Rotty after coming from a home of GSD's (of which I have one at the mo').. I feel a rotty will be a wonderful addtion. I have been blown away be the gentle nature, the calmness and his ability to be still.

GR is nearly 3 years old and weighs in at 50 kilos, not one broken nail on my behalf nor a day of stretched arms. He walks off lead in our front yard and upon recall, is by my side like a black shadow.

And I have to say I have never heard anything as impressive as the roar of a rotty. His bark and roar are more guttural and deeper then any GSD I have heard. So based on the sheer presence of such a dog, I say Vote 1 Rottwelier.

Oh Herr Rottwelier and K9 - thank you, I do hope the sheer sight of me and my two boys keeps the unwanted's away I like to think it is the sight of them not me that does it

[grotty_rotty]

Jintanut...you get great kisses too !

[Poodle wrangler]

Both Rottis and Dobes have quite 'soft'-looking faces. Beautiful dogs! It's the muscled body that goes with it that'd deter an intruder.

[Nekhbet]

ooooooooooooooooooooh grotty rotty kisses!!!

hmmm i miss rotties theyre so cuddly and smooshy... who could resist a rotty face

My grandmas rotty is reaching 15 and she's still protecting away, she even lets the chickens walk all over her, the bog boofa feeds em too

[Herr Rottweiler]

Gamin who is now 11 years old and is only a small Rotty female was reveared in her dayas a Security dog. Some of the hard core trainers used to laugh at me and her when I'd bring her onto the field because she is only 35 kilo.

;) Funniy thing was after they saw her stopping power on one poor decoy there were a few red faces and not many volunteers to go next.

She was an awsome little bitch in her day and even at 11 she has fire in her belly but she's a very loveable, generous little bitch that I've been proud to have her in my life.

[Roguedog]

im loving this thread!!

Amhailte:

I was also wondering about Amstaffs and Pitbulls, would you say these dogs would be more suitable for protecion work than Staffords, or do they have the same temperament "drawbacks" as Staffords?

And about staffords, wouldn't they be too small for bitework anyway? Even if my dog had the right temperament for protection training, he's so small that I'd be petrified he would get seriously hurt in a confrontation.

have seen 2 amstaffs do very well, I did some bite work with one last week, she hits hard, good bite too..

[Ashli]

I rescued my 8 month old dobe x Keisha from the pound and got my 8 month old rotti Narla from Greyhoundangels and even though they are still young, they are protective of our daughters aged 3 and 6months. When we are out walking, Narla walks along side the pram and doesn't move away from it, and Keisha walks right next to my 3yr old and won't let her go off the footpath. They both adore our children and us as well.

At home Keisha and Narla bark at people that walk too close to our fence, they alert us when someone is at the door, the back gate, or near our car. But to be honest I don't think Narla would bite an intruder, Keisha might though.

I'm 6ft and weigh 64kgs, and both dogs are strong, but do not try to yank my arms out of their sockets. They love all dogs, except undesexed male dogs, dunno why ;)

And whilst I'd love to do some kind of protection training with both, I live 700kms away from the nearest city, and to my knowledge, there is no training/trainers available here in Kalgoorlie that do anything other than obedience.

Wish I lived closer to a few cities

Ashli

A piccie of the girls with my 3yr old, even at home they have to be around her 24/7

[Cordelia]

You want a dog to scare people off.......

A Dane is perfect....... behind that REALLY stoopid exterior is a savage beast just waiting to devour an intruder!!!

Be afraid, be very afraid..............

[Jintanut]

Thank you for so many replies.

K9 Jinta is protective at home, she is alert to noises, and i had 2 guys come and take an old wardrobe this morning, and she puts on a big barking show, growling etc. After a sniff, and knowing im ok I suppose she calmed, and let them in.

She is not a nuisance barker, but my new neighbours tell me she whimpers, or squeaks. Staffy noises, not barking. I d like to send a stranger to the door when im out to see what her reaction is.

She has protected me against dogs on another occasion, 2 larger dogs were getting too close and she was VERY vocal and put herself between us. She doesnt like to see me recieve a hug.....always barks.

At an of lead park she will be social, but passive towards most other dogs. When on a lead she is social. I think her recent move turned her sooky for a while, I hope she regains her confidence soon. I am watching her mature in many ways.

I would not consider buying a 'ready trained dog', thats not any sort of way to own a pet, its just a machine...with a purpose, and yes I would be afraid of a dog I didnt know from puppyhood. I like to try to understand my dog.dogs (one day) I know I can put my hand in Jintas mouth, anytime, and she wont bite, its about knowing your dog, maybe im wrong?

I do plan on owning a Rotti in the future, not right now, I will wait for what I need - time to train and money to train, and my own home, as I dont plan to be living in rentals for too mucher longer. Those Rotti kisses look goood.. and I agree just the BARK is enough to make you jump outta your skin!! I avoided near death by a Rotti chained up in a front yard, I stood too close in chains reach and this poor dog LIVED on that chain. Never walked, etc. Yes I reported it and RSPCA did nothing.

Edited November 17, 2005 by Jintanut

[Steve K9Pro]

J:

K9 Jinta is protective at home, she is alert to noises, and i had 2 guys come and take an old wardrobe this morning, and she puts on a big barking show, growling etc. After a sniff, and knowing im ok I suppose she calmed, and let them in.

K9: this is guard drive, a combination of defence & rank, when you leave home you dont have the rank so you dont have guard drive...

J:

She has protected me against dogs on another occasion

K9: Im afraid that didnt happen, she was just being defensive, of herself.

[Jintanut]

;) Thanks k9 ..

Here I was thinking she had "some" protective nature barking away those dogs..putting on a show....

Is there a way to improve her guard drive?? for when im out?

Yes she goes wild when anyone arrives and im here.....but I doubt shes got it when im out, I suppose the only way to tell, is to send a stranger, neighbour to the door when im out???

Reading your thread on "drives" and trying to get my head around it,( its complex and I dont know what a drive toy is...)

have you ever published a book, or dvd?might go to your site and try to learn something....

I WANT to understand all this. She loves to play, so could I use her 'play drive' to train her???

I have retreive, i have recall, I have tricks, I have response to my commands, I have control in almost every way except her protective side.

How can I stop her from being 'loving' towards everyone, without turning her nasty. I just want her to have indifference/curious nature towards strangers NOT her bathing them with kisses.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, K9 I know how valuable it is.