Protection Training..?

[walkthedog]

such an interesting thread, and important, as we all seem to be experiencing threating behaviour by having our homes/yards invaded by someone wanting what? anything it seems. I would have thought I have nothing that anyone would want, but still have been broken into here 3 times. The first time he had to walk over the dogs in the laundry

next time blocked by the new lock, but the last time Sam, my rescue Golden Retriever, bailed up a young guy in my garage. with him so woosy, so afraid of thunder and loud noises and anything new, my hero barked loudly and furiously and thus frightned the little shit so much he was clearly shaken, and he took off over the fence, with me holding Sams collar.

But you have to feel safe in your own home. When I had Jessie here (foster german shep) I FELT safer, and maybe this is the key. Unless the dog is trained to act, you do not really know how they will cope with this situation. Sam has since taken his role very seriously - he would never attack, IMHO, but noone comes to the door or walks around the fence perimeter without him notifying all and sundry.

[slim1]

As a pitty owner i can vouch that they are very protective & territorial. Heaven forbid any person who may attempt to wander on my property whilst im not there. The low growl & barking sends shivers up my spine.

[haven]

1 of my dogs nailed one of the trio in my yard which the police were fine about

No excessive force, just some holes in his bum and he held him in the corner until I got up and arrested the intruder

It was STIMPY wasn't it

To the OP, if it's a large dog you're after, don't take this the wrong way but consider how large YOU are. I have a 42kg Rottweiler and a 40kg GSD and at 60kg myself they would be hard work if they were not so well trained eg pulling on lead etc.

Protection training is VERY hard, physical work.

My concern is that you stated you don't really want another dog and that also just the look and sound of a large dog scares you. No offense but you don't really sound the perfect candidate to own a 50kg manstopper.

Even if you decide on a smaller dog, be aware that 2 dogs somehow equates to much more than twice the work and trouble

[Herr Rottweiler]

It was STIMPY wasn't it

If it was Stimpy he would have been covered in spray

[Leema]

Our Chow Chow once grabbed the ankle of my uncle when he decided to come into the backyard when no one answered the door (why? I don't know). Before hand, the chow had made plenty of awful, scary growls and barks, but I don't think he LOOKS very scary.

My parents had a boxer called Cassius (just like every other boxer?). He would sleep in my parents room. One night my dad was on a shift and came home at an 'unusual time'. Apparently, Cass went absolutely ballistic, barking and carrying on, but it wasn't until my father spoke that he realised who it was that he became calm once more.

As for my border terrier, I wouldn't trust him to be anything heroic. :p He lets off a very scary growl for such a little dog, but does so while walking backwards.

I agree with the general idea that a big, noisy dog would probably be scary enough.

[Jintanut]

hey everyone, thanks so much for your thoughts and advise.

I am going to consider getting a 2nd furkid, and yes, a big rotti is my 1st choice.

Now as 'haven' has said, size of dog compared to size of me....im 45kgs and 5'3. I understand that two dogs are more expensive than 1....

So the dog would be my weight or exceed it. I dont fear large dogs, but I do have a healthy respect for those I dont know...

I loved my sisters late rotti and we would cuddle up to share the lounge watching movies etc.

I am physically strong for my height and weight, my work is physically demanding, how strong do you need to be to train a Rotti??? this may be where K9 comes into the picture..!!

I dont jump in without thought, and im really giving this alot of thought. I didnt realize protection training wasnt legal, or that the dog would be considered dangerous, after having training.Wasnt aware of muzzle in public??? although it makes sense for safety, how can a muzzled dog protect me????

I have had an alarm at another residence, it went off for over 24 hrs while i was away once and police broke in to disconnect it. I dont believe alarms do much for us, people in general have become immune and annoyed by car/home alarms. back to base is great, although 10 mins to wait for police is too long.

I have been robbed, while at home, and while out, and had car bashed up because of alarm, and had a stalkers(peeping tom) x3.i have had enough of people disturbing my peace, and my life. I used to have mace, and live in fear, im moving to a new place on Monday and I guess im thinking ahead, I really want a peacefull life.

My idea now is to try and find more info on Rotti breed, do my research and then look into training. I realize all this isnt cheap, but i consider it $$$ well spent. Protection, friendship and loyalty that money cant buy!!

K9,.......(your advise is gold, thanks sooooo much)

I want a dog that I know will 'protect ' me, Jinta, and our home.

I also want a close bond with my dogs, is this possible after training??also would they get along, if only 1 has training?? ideally if the larger dog who i will train could protect myself and Jinta, I have nightmare of coming home to find Jinta gone...can they be friends??? id be more inclined to buy a pup, toilet train, house train, and then have formal training done, I may be wrong but I feel this would strenghten any bonds id have with the new dog, and allow jinta to adjust.

love the posts everyone i had a laugh reading this tonight, and YES IM BACK on DOL and the net, although i will need to update all contacts, 7 months away from the net!!!.

Its nice to be back.

anyone want to pm me, with rotti info please do, excersize needs, temperment, size of male/female, anything important i need to know...

[Jintanut]

hi again, (cant sleep)

I want to make it clear I dont want to own a dog that I cant handle. I am open to suggestion regarding best breed to suit me. (although I do love the rotti's looks)

This is what I need. A dog that is friendly, playfull, social, and obiedent, a pet to live happily with Jinta(desexed female)and myself.

I want the quality of a strong guarding instinct. At the same time, I want a dog that can socialize, and be a friend for Jinta.

Barking can be a problem, Jinta barks at noises, and on command. I dont need a crazed barker....

I can train my dogs, but I believe some 1 on 1 with a trainer is valuable, Jinta got this early, and so would my new dog.(this time with K9. )

(Jintas training was obiedence only, i wasnt concerned with protection, silly me thought it came naturally, she was too young, to be honest I got trained so I could train her...)

[phatdex]

I would say a malinoios then jinto, 25KG's is a bit easier to handle and I posted up a vid of them doing takedown work here once and they hit the people HARD!

[Kavik]

I think if you put the work in you should be able to control a Rotty. I know a security guard who is only your size and she handles Shepherds for work. All my security guard friends do not let me use the excuse of my small size when it comes to handling large dogs (and I am smaller than you)! I have handled a few Shepherds in protection too, dfferent when they are not your dog though.

I'm not totally up to speed on all the laws re protection dogs. Although even if the dog has to be muzzled in public, if you teach it muzzle fighting it will still be able to protect you if muzzled

[Staranais]

K9, is it possible to teach a dog just to "put on a show" of being aggressive (lunging, growling, barking etc) on cue, but not actually teach the dog bitework?

I'm just thinking that a realistic show of aggression would probably be enough deterent for most situations, and then you wouldn't need to be concerned about the legal ramifications of owning an "attack dog"?

[phatdex]

Here is a basic question. The people behind us just looked over the back fence and I heard a low rumbling growl and some low barking. I went outside to see both my dogs at the fence with their hair on their backs all raised, my amstaff doing the growling and my shar pei doing the barking. Not being trained, does this mean if the people behind us were then to jump the fence into our backyards the dogs would do nothing? Or u dont know until the ppl try?

Can some dogs without any training actually attack someone who jumps your fence? or would 99.9% have no idea what to do?

I cant see my dogs attacking anyone in a normal situation, but are they more likely to protect their backyard against intruders?

[Nekhbet]

Jintanut

If I was a breeder I would not sell you a pup. You have done no research into protection training and you are only looking at 'oh bigger must be better' when it comes to the breed. Have you tried to hold back a 50kg rottweiler while its trying to launch itself at a decoy? My 25Kg Malinois is powerful enough, she can drag a 110kg male with her. You seem to be thinking that bigger is better without considering the legalities of owning a giant protection machine. And that is what a fully trained personal protection dog is. Yes they must be muzzled in public, your fences must comply to council standards, your property must have signs and you must declare your dog as DANGEROUS to the council, vet etc BECUASE THEY ARE TRAINED TO BITE A PERSON NOT JUST TO GRAB A SLEEVE. If the dog DOES bite someone you will be liable, especially if you do not comply with local laws to the letter.

Its no good looking for a puppy and then looking into training. Go to training centres and watch, learn and listen to how it is done. Not everyone is suited to train these dogs as they have very dominant personalities. Do you have the self discipline to train this animal for 2-4 hours EVERY DAY? No exceptions, no breaks, no cutting corners, no half way. You cant go for a holiday half way for a couple of weeks and expect to place it into a kennel.

These dogs can take a few years before they are fully fledged (and even then a lot of them fail) and their training begins from DAY 1. Not, oh we'll do some obedience etc etc then start. Nope formal obedience can kill drive in some dogs because its two separate methods used. You have to build courage and drive in these dogs from the day they open their eyes. The first few months are critical in shaping a pup. And what happens if you do something wrong in their trianing without realising? all that money and effort down the toilet and you are left with a dog that cannot do the job you bought it for. Anyway a specially bred protection/law enforcement pup is around $1500-$2000. Plus training($$$$), food, vet costs etc. Its more expensive to do it yourself.

Do yourself a favour. Shell out the $3000-$4000 for a fully trained personal protection dog. They are extremely well socialised, family friendly young adult dogs but are ready trained to protect when the need arises. From the day the dog comes to your home you can be sure it will do its job. If the dog does not settle in the company should provide you with a replacement.

Anhialate - having a dog that lunges, barks, foams etc at another person would be considered dangerous by the council. How can you prove your dog will not bite if its raving like a lunatic? To get a dog to hold and bark like that is more difficult to train in a protection dog then getting it to just run up and grab because you are forcing the dog to stand its ground. It does not have the option to run it must stand and defend - without fighting? uh uh thats extremely stressful on the dog too.

Have feeling I will be flamed to a crispy critter but people have to understand this is a long, hard and difficult process, not for the average dog owner. Anyone can create a dog that bites, lunges and is a crazy uncontrolled bite machine, but very few can create a personal protection guardian.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Nekhbet

[Erny]

K9, is it possible to teach a dog just to "put on a show" of being aggressive (lunging, growling, barking etc) on cue, but not actually teach the dog bitework?

Hi Amhailte .... I know K9 and HR are better qualified to answer, but I do know of some dogs who've been trained to "guard" (ie "Hold and Bark"). I love watching this - it's really impressive to see the dogs exhibit such control. All the dogs I know of that do this, however, are also trained for the bite work, and I'd guess that the "hold and bark" works so well because the dogs are trained that at some stage (not necessarily in THAT exercise) they will get their reward/drive satisfaction (ie the bite)????

I guess "hold and bark" could be done without the other, but drive satisfaction would need to be met to keep the dogs enthusiastic enough to be realistic.

Not a great answer, I know, as this is outside my field of expertise. But I'm sure K9 or HR will come in with an answer soon. I'm interested to know how far outside the mark I am with my guess .

[haven]

Have feeling I will be flamed to a crispy critter but people have to understand this is a long, hard and difficult process, not for the average dog owner. Anyone can create a dog that bites, lunges and is a crazy uncontrolled bite machine, but very few can create a personal protection guardian.

Not at all Nekhbet, I think your comments are right on the money and aimed at ensuring the OP understands what they are asking for

[malinwar]

to nekhbet

[Kelpie-i]

Well "said" Nekhbet. You're spot on!

[Jintanut]

hi Nekbet,

At 1st I was slightly put off by your 1st sentence, and all THE CAPITAL LETTERS, but, this is an open forum, and I have posted a question, and I honestly thank you for taking the time to reply to me with your genuine thoughts.

I do realize there is alot to take into consideration regarding a new dog, and will NOT take any decision lightly. I dont just go out and buy dogs willy nilly. Those who know me on DOL know this. A few well respected responsible breeders have even offered me a dog in the past.

I am reaserching protecton training, and have not gone out to buy a BIG dog, on a whim. Please dont assume I am ignorant or stupid(or that I would buy a pup, than go on holiday!!!there is no need to insult me, I put in 2-3 hours of excersize and play into Jinta)

I originally posted regarding my dogs passive nature, this lead to talk of larger dogs. This was begun YESTERDAY, im simply looking at the options.

I am now wondering if I can work with Jinta to help her guarding instincts, K9 may be able to answer if that is possible.

I hope this does NOT end this discussion, I have learned quite a bit, and I now feel perhaps a trained protection dog isnt the best choice.

Its good to be back..... thank you to everyone for the consrtuctive and educated advise. I didnt know 1/2 the information I know after 24 hrs of replies, thankyou for the education.

edited to add: i am NOT repeat NOT rushing out for a pup, I am simply learning and considering options available to me.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Jintanut

[Herr Rottweiler]

Nekhbet, there are parts of your points that I agree with and there are sections where I don't. I do understand where you are comming from and that I do agree with, especially the points where you are encouraging Jintanut to educate herself before rushing in. That's responsable and commendable.

Have you tried to hold back a 50kg rottweiler while its trying to launch itself at a decoy? My 25Kg Malinois is powerful enough, she can drag a 110kg male with her. You seem to be thinking that bigger is better without considering the legalities of owning a giant protection machine

In my experience, there is no comparison from a Malanoir to a Rottweiler. They are completely different styles of dogs all together. A Rottweiler is mainly active when something warrants activity where a Mal will pace up and down like a dobe all day long. That in itself is something any potential owner needs to look into as it is like comparing a formula 1 car with a BMW. On another note, why does she have to get a 50 kg Rottweiler? Some of the females are suitable for home protection and they are 35+ kg and quite sensitive to their handlers. I used to train and sell protection dogs full time for about 5 years. Many of the dogs I placed went to single abused women/ mothers with children and not once did we ever have a problem. The police even used to recommend the women to us.

Its no good looking for a puppy and then looking into training. Go to training centres and watch, learn and listen to how it is done. Not everyone is suited to train these dogs as they have very dominant personalities. Do you have the self discipline to train this animal for 2-4 hours EVERY DAY? No exceptions, no breaks, no cutting corners, no half way. You cant go for a holiday half way for a couple of weeks and expect to place it into a kennel.

In my opinion, that's a little etreme! I agree you do need an ongoing, diciplined committment but she's not looking for a military war machine. Just so we are clear here guys, i'm not suggesting for one minute for Jintanut or anyone for that matter to get themselves involved with something that they are incapable of handling however, I do believe that people have a right to feel secure. As other DOLers pointed out, 10 minutes can be an eternity and in 10 minutes, a good or a desperate thief can do over 2 or 3 houses.

Jintanut one clear message that Nekhbet was pointing out is go and get an education about all of this before you make any rash decisions. If you can, speak to breeders of these types of dogs, (one that is suitable) and have a look at the training. I too would not sell anyone a dog without an assessment of their character and capability.

[Nekhbet]

I only gave, well, the extreme case scenario. Thats why I donned the flame suit and had the extinguisher ready. For a beginner trainer its easy to make mistakes, even with professional trainers involved so consistancy can be the key. I'm just worried that first timers trying proper protection (and not just sport where the dog can remain in prey and stil do OK) can go a little out of their depth, especially with a larger dog. If an accident DOES arise (in the grand sceme of things those 1 in a million things occasionally happen) the owner has to know 110% they are capable of restraining the dog manually. I only meant restraint in a lunge in this case, you pretty much have to hog tie mals to keep them quiet

My point (which due to insomnia came out as a sloppy mess) was that Jintanut would be better off investing the money in a ready trained protection animal. She would be safe from day 1, she would not have the hassel and constant outlay for a puppy that may or may not turn out to be good for protection or that may even require more then average training to bring out its true capability. I bought my Mal as a guard (which she does all too well) as well as sport dog but I never expected a 3 month old pup to be able to do that job. It was probably more we were protecting her for quite a while

Jintanut sorry if I came across rough. Remember BSL is really running rampant and the last thing we want is for you to be victimised as well for training an 'attack' dog by your council.

Good luck in your decision

[Kavik]

There is of course a well known and respected trainer in Melbourne and NDTF who has Rotties and she is only small and has no problem controlling them! I have had the pleasure of meeting with her at various courses and have even worked her dogs on occasion (protection and scent detection). She taught the dog not to pull during its protection work.