Molly Doesn't Like B A R F

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

So, Molly arrived on Sunday night and after the excitement died down somewhat, I offered her a couple of chicken necks - she *loved* them. I thought that we were off to a great start esp when I thought about all the horror stories from ppl with tiny breeds and mixes...how fussy they can be with their food.

Anyway, since then, she doesn't like what I offer - she'll still go the chicken necks but that's all. I've tried veg/fruit slop (she has a couple of licks and then walks away), plain yoghurt (didn't like it but ate some tonight), ox tail (wouldn't touch it even when I cut the meat open with a sharp knife), and offal (wouldn't touch white tripe or lamb liver). She also wants to bury her food rather than eat it b/c she tries to get it under cover (I use cloth nappies on the floor to try to protect it, but I have to give up that idea or she'll just 'bury' everything in folds of the nappy).

Tomorrow morning I'll skip her meal. Then tomorrow night, I'll try a smashed up chicken wing raw, with slightly warmed up liver and tripe. If that doesn't work, then I'll slightly warm the RMB the following night. I figure if she's hungry she will eat at some point. I'm torn - I know the advice, I've given it to others hundreds of times, but at the same time, she's new here and perhaps still unsure of everything.

How long should I wait before abandoning or modifying BARF to suit her? She has been used to HSD, but I wouldn't feed that. IF and it's a very big IF, I had to give her processed, it would most likely be EVO or California Natural of some sort.

If anyone can help me sort it, I'd be grateful. So, anyone with a tiny dog that don't know what's good for them? How did you overcome the issue?

All suggestions gratefully received.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Is she an adult dog or a pup?

Mel.

[Dogsfevr]

The dog should be on the diet recommend irrespective of your thoughts & weaned over slowly.The meats you are expecting her to eat are not the norm & extremely different in taste ,smell & appeal factor.

It is unfair to expect the dog to just eat what you want it too overnight.

Do whats right for the dog,feed what its use to & introduce little portions gradually,to be honest if i had to eat that diet id starve too.Tripe,liver,ox tails are very unusual foods & many dogs wouldnt eat them.

There is a difference between hungry & eating & swapping to a diet overnight that is to the extreme of the diet its use to.

Buy some hills which its stomach is use to & do small changes,the diet may not be perfect in your eyes but its something the pup/dog is use to .

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

The dog should be on the diet recommend irrespective of your thoughts & weaned over slowly.The meats you are expecting her to eat are not the norm & extremely different in taste ,smell & appeal factor.

It is unfair to expect the dog to just eat what you want it too overnight.

Do whats right for the dog,feed what its use to & introduce little portions gradually,to be honest if i had to eat that diet id starve too.Tripe,liver,ox tails are very unusual foods & many dogs wouldnt eat them.

There is a difference between hungry & eating & swapping to a diet overnight that is to the extreme of the diet its use to.

Buy some hills which its stomach is use to & do small changes,the diet may not be perfect in your eyes but its something the pup/dog is use to .

While you're entitled to your opinion, I've been feeding BARF to my dogs for well over two years and it is what works best IMO.

I would never offer a dog HSD b/c it's absolute garbage and perhaps causes cancer (among other diseases).

Nobody recommended HSD, the rescue was given a quantity of it so they've been using it, but they follow a raw, natural foods diet philosophy too.

Dr Ian Billinghurst, a very well-respected vet, recommends a rapid switch to BARF for the dog accustomed to other types of foods. And I have to say that this works in the majority of cases. But Molly is a toy mixed breed and I have no experience in small dogs. That's why I posted what I did.

Fasting a dog for 24 to 48 hours is not a problem. I don't usually fast my dogs but from time to time, it's a good idea to give their systems a break no matter what you feed them.

You say that tripe, liver and ox tails are very unusual foods - no they're not. Processed pet foods are unusual and a rather recent invention that is designed to line the pockets of multinational giants. I do not support these corporations willingly b/c they are morally and ethically corrupt IMO.

Perhaps if you conducted some research and gave some consideration to what you feed, you might just learn a few things and perhaps change your mind.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Is she an adult dog or a pup?

Mel.

Her age is approx 2 yrs.

[poodlefan]

I don't feed my dogs straight fruit/vegie mix. I add eggs, yoghurt mince and offal to it. Its about 60% veggies. That's how Dr B says to feed it and I found by starting with a relatively high proportion of mince and reducing it, my dogs adapted quite readily.

None of my dogs will touch straight offal. White tripe is essentially valueless in terms of nutrition - its basically nearly all water. I wouldn't bother with it.

I personally think you are taking things to extremes. Perhaps you should revisit Dr B's feeding recommendations. I would suggest you accustom this dog to eating a higher proportion of more palatable foods and adjust slowly.

BTW - oxtail will not be an appropriate raw meaty bone for a small dog - they won't digest the actual bone. I'd recommend you stick to more digestable bones like chicken necks and wings initially and use larger bones as your recreational bones.

Dogs are essentially carnivores who will oppotunistically eat some vegetable material - I suggest you add a bit more meat initially.

I have heard Dr B say you can do a rapid or a slower swtich to BARF. I would be guided by your dog in that regard.

Edited November 10, 2005 by poodlefan

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Oh, I've tried mixing the things together, but Molly seems able to eat around what she doesn't like. And I can't get decent quality minced meat and have no mincer/grinder to do it myself.

I'll keep trying and keep offering different things. Hopefully she'll eat tonight as I withheld breakfast this morning, as per Dr B's suggestions/recommendations. I've got the BARF diet book on the coffee table and am constantly referring to it ATM. Molly is SUCH a challenge!

The thing is, I took her for a wellness check on Monday b/c she was in rescue and I wanted to know her general health status. Vet recommended rapid switch to BARF and also recommended ox tail due to the dreadful state of her teeth (not to mention breath!). The intention is to gnaw the muscle but leave the bone rather than consume the whole RMB as is the norm.

I just thought someone may have some pearls of wisdom to offer me b/c I've never had a tiny breed before. She's the funniest little person I've known...and I know that if I just keep offering her raw foods I should strike something she likes other than chicken necks.

I'll keep you all updated! And thanks for the suggestions so far...it's appreciated.

BTW - I know white tripe is nutritionally void, but it's not possible to buy a wide variety of offal where I live ATM - this will hopefully change when we get back to Canberra.

[poodlefan]

Lilysmum you can go to any proper butcher and buy a cheap cut of steak and they will put it through the mincer for you. Personally, I just buy people quality beef mince. I mix the veggies into it VERY thoroughly.

You will find feeding a variety of bones will be best for her teeth. Chicken wings are a good work out for the littlies and I also use quartered lamb necks. Bring stuff to room temperature and she should find things more palatable.

Don't freak about the offal. Its a small part of the diet. I find mine make do on the odd bit of liver or kidney mixed into the veggie mix.

Edited November 10, 2005 by poodlefan

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Thanks PF - Dr B says to warm things up slightly, so I'll try that tonight. Fingers crossed! Local butchers are a bit ahem, slack and don't like fulfilling "special orders". I'll try that though! Pet mince is garbage IMO and I won't touch the human grade mince on offer b/c it's usually past its best or full of preservatives.

Do wings really get littlies teeth clean? I'm just a bit inexperienced with littlies and of course, other dogs have readily adjusted to BARF so it caught me off guard.

I guess it had to happen some time!

[poodlefan]

Lillysmum

Do wings really get littlies teeth clean?

They are pretty good - not much chop on the canines but only tearing stuff cleans them. My guys all have great teeth apart from the canines.

[Guest LittlePixie]

Hey poodlefan... with the tearing... I just gave my lot frozen chicken frames for breakfast this morning and both Brody and Kaeleigh were actually holding them down with their front paws and tearing bits off them.

Maybe that's a good way to get some tearing action in there??

[poodlefan]

LP:

Maybe that's a good way to get some tearing action in there??

Sounds like an idea. I could throw a whole side of lamb in the backyard too.

[Guest LittlePixie]

Yeah.... or some live lambs... get the hunting and exercise in there too

[poodlefan]

Yeah.... or some live lambs... get the hunting and exercise in there too 

Knowing my wimps, the lambs would be quite safe. They are more into rodents.

[Guest LittlePixie]

....what about a capybara?

[poodlefan]

Hey LP, that's exactly what I was thinking after I posted about rodents. Have you seen the size of the teeth on those things.

I don't think my dogs could hold their breath long enough to catch one - they sure swim well.

[TiffanyAmber]

lillysmum how much are you feeding her? If you are giving a nice size plate of tucker, well she can afford to be choosey.

Little dogs tend to get overfed. Believe me I know. We fuss over them to much and dont they know it.

My two chi's only get a egg ring size portion of BARF. And even thats too much.

Dont worry about the size of the feed. Just cut the size down as much as possible. If one night you only gave a desert spoon, then the next night she will be hungry for tablespoon size.

Watch the rest of the family. Are they feeding little tid bits? Tell them no. My Tiffany was growing bull dog size because she worked out that if she followed the kids around she knew she would get something extra.

Dont change Mollys diet to often. They like their meals to be the same. Once in awhile I will change it, but only once a week.

Now her teeth, little dogs are more prone to tartare on their teeth. I have just had my two girls cleaned by the vet. It wouldnt hurt to have them cleaned and start fresh. The bad smell from the mouth could indicate rotten teeth. They are so small and you wouldnt know until you got in there and had a good look.

My girls are four years old and one had four teeth removed, the other two.

Hope this helped.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Thanks TA - it's only me at home ATM, no kids, DH is away for work. Molly has an appetite and the vet has given me guidelines on how much to feed (he's been very good, I must say...with my lack of experience with tiny ones, he was so helpful and took time to explain things and answer my questions). He did say to give it time with feeding bigger bones to get the tartar off, but if there is no improvement in a month or so, he wants her back for another look. Her weight is ideal so she definitely doesn't need to gain or lose just maintain.

She does like chicken - necks and wings are really enjoyable! I offer only two small necks or one wing portion (not the whole wing, just 2/3). She also likes lamb but not if there is bone in it. Tonight I'm going back to chicken and veg slop with a tiny dollop of yoghurt (she likes yoghurt!).

I know what you're saying about not changing foods too much. I guess I just need to get my head around the idea that she's *different* from the other two, who will eat almost anything raw.

And I'm really trying not to fuss, but it's so difficult when she's new and I just want her to be happy.

Am I a sucker or what!

[Cavalier]

Sweeping statements like "nobodywould recommend Hills Science Diet" and "Hills Science Diet causes cancer" have absolutely no backing to them except your opinion.

You are obviously very pro BARF and that is great. BUT that does not mean that your way is the only way you can keep a dog healthy throughout its life.

Many MANY MANY dogs are fed premium commercial diets and do fantastically. Just because Your dog was fed HSD and it happened to get cancer, does not mean that the HSD caused the cancer!!!!!!

Both my dogs are fed commercial diets and every dog I have owned before them has been fed a commercial diet. They are/were all very healthy and lived til ripe old ages.

If you want to go to the trouble of mixing up a BARF diet then go for it!!! But dont ridicule other people when they do not follow what you do.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Sweeping statements like "nobodywould recommend Hills Science Diet" and "Hills Science Diet causes cancer" have absolutely no backing to them except your opinion.

You are obviously very pro BARF and that is great. BUT that does not mean that your way is the only way you can keep a dog healthy throughout its life.

Many MANY MANY dogs are fed premium commercial diets and do fantastically. Just because Your dog was fed HSD and it happened to get cancer, does not mean that the HSD caused the cancer!!!!!!

Both my dogs are fed commercial diets and every dog I have owned before them has been fed a commercial diet. They are/were all very healthy and lived til ripe old ages.

If you want to go to the trouble of mixing up a BARF diet then go for it!!! But dont ridicule other people when they do not follow what you do.

Can you please refresh my memory? I don't recall saying, "nobody would recommend Hills Science Diet", or "Hills Science Diet causses cancer"...perhaps you could quote my post/s where I wrote those things???

Actually, my opinion is my opinion and I've stated as much. Perhaps you could go back and re-read what I've actually said and quote that, rather than YOUR opinion of what you THINK I said??? Oh, but that wouldn't be anywhere near as dramatic or contraversial, would it??? Gee, sorry that my actual words and meanings don't suit your purposes.

Do you work for HSD or hold shares in the company?

Where do I say "[my] dog was fed HSD and it happened to get cancer"???

I didn't say that b/c I've never actually fed a dog HSD. I have a pile of evidence to back up what I'm led to believe about this and similar "middle of the range" kibble, but as nobody wishes to fund a proper study using a natural diet vs a commercial diet, b/c there is no profit in that, then it's all anecdotal evidence from a large number of vets around the world.

Ahem, where exactly have I "ridicule[d]" anyone for not feeding BARF? I couldn't care less what anybody else feeds their pet/s, b/c it's their business, isnt' it? But having had dogs for close to 40 years, and having had a range of feeding options and styles trialled over those years, I have come to the well-informed conclusion that a natural diet (ALA BARF) is the most species-appropriate and health-giving way of feeding the domestic canine.

I'm very pleased for you and your dogs that commercial foods have done them no harm and have allowed them to live long, productive, healthy and inexpensive lives. And I'm sure that it's very convenient for you, b/c all you do is buy a bag of stuff and dish it up. There is nothing wrong with that. But I prefer to take the time to purchase human grade (organic where possible) foods and prepare every meal so that it is tailored to that particular dog's requirements for that meal. I am also able to adjust every meal as required. And I know that everything I give to my dogs is healthy and free from disease b/c I bought the whole, raw ingredients and prepared everything myself. I think my dogs are worth that much!

Their health is excellent. They visit the vet annually for their checkups and vaccinations. They are all on preventives for h/w, intestinal worms, fleas and ticks, and I groom them at home regularly. They are never sick since switching to BARF, whereas in the past, visits to the vet for various ailments were common and frequent. Our vets have all commented on the dogs' excellent health since switching, and even my greyhound's teeth got a huge smile from the vet in Cairns. She had NEVER seen a GH with such "amazingly clean teeth and no gum disease". She wasn't surprised when she asked what we fed her on and the answer was Bones and Raw Foods, but she was thrilled that we had chosen this method of feeding our dogs.

Please also remember that processed pet foods are very recent inventions, and they were invented to make a lot of money out of ppl b/c suddenly, you couldn't trust yourself to know what your dog needed to eat. It's a very paternalistic and profitable industry that feeds millions of pets every year, yet it also is responsible for animal cruelty b/c of the demands it makes for intensively farmed livestock and poultry. But I suppose animal welfare doesn't concern you either? Gee, now THAT'S a sweeping statement, and I'm not really comfortable with making such a statement about someone I don't know. My actual opinion or thought on the matter is that you probably haven't thought about the animals that go into feeding your animals and how they were raised, fed, or slaughtered, and which bits of the animals end up in your dog's dinner bowl. Or perhaps you have and are quite comfortable with continuing such cruelty b/c it's easier than preparing your dog's meals yourself. I don't know. And it matters not to me at all. I make choices I am comfortable with, and so do you. And there is nothing wrong with that either.