Is This An Ok Way To Train

[kelpiecuddles]

Sascha has always been good at her sit/drop stays and then trotting ina nd sitting in front of me and then returning for a nice finish. I am now trying to develop her sitting or dropping part way through the recall. I use a seperate command for this so that she can expect another command (come for a standard call in and forward for a sit/drop on the move).

So this is how I work it: We move into position and I sit Sascha tell her to stay and then walk away to a good distance. I give the command forward and she starts moving towards me, I then give the command to drop or sit and she is expected to do the approriate action. I am having some trouble stopping her though, she does normally do the command before she gets to me but it often takes 6 or so steps before she stops.

I asked my OH to help me the other day with a piece of string tied to her collar so that he could put some pressure on her if she didn't immediately start moving into the new position. We had some success with this and a couple of times he didn't need to apply pressure at all or very little.

I am just wondering if you guys think that this is an OK technique to be using or if you had any other suggestions?

[Herr Rottweiler]

Sounds good to me!

If it works use it

[haven]

Are you asking about the technique of two seperate commands IE come and forward, or about the tie out on the collar to add pressure?

Assuming it's the latter, it can be a technique that works for some. Some other ways to help her understand not to come toward you are using clear, assertive signals, blocking body language or shaping.

[Vickie]

How old is she now? I would be careful with stuff like this on a puppy if you're not sure what you're doing. I always get worried when people are doing stuff too advanced on puppies, especially since you want to build her drive for agility. It's so easy to control them to much to the point of shutting them down a little.

[kelpiecuddles]

She's going on for 7 months now. I am aware of the worry about decreasing her ability to work on her own as such so I am careful to keep a fun, relaxed attitude with training. Also when we are around the agility field as we occasionally are I don't restricit her movement any more than is necessary and allow her to watch the other dogs and get a bit excited(which she does )

I never teach her anything in a forceful way and as my OH is not overly experienced I have made sure to keep a close eye on him so that the pressure is only slight to give her the idea, as she does understand the command, I am just refining the way she performs it. In reality the strength of the string we are using would be akin to sewing cotton so it would be impossible to use it to apply too much force.

[Kelpie-i]

Hi KC

Don't panic too muh, you will be shown various methods of achieving this when you start with us.

A word of warning with drops/sits on recalls....if you are not doing them properly and your posturing and signalling is wrong then it will slow down your recall significantly.

In the interim, make sure you do more full recalls than drop/sit on recalls to keep up her speed

[Vickie]

Hi KC, I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were using too much physical force, and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

I guess what I was talking about was more along the lines of what KelpieI is saying. It's easy when training something like this to create uncertainty, especially in a puppy. This uncertainty can make a dog cautious & can impact on the trust you have in your relationship...something that you should be using her puppyhood to build.

I have no problem with the exercise, I have taught my 3 to do it. But I did leave it until they were more grown up & had developed trust in me & a work ethic.

JMO

[Rusky]

work on your sit to drop, drop to sit close up and in front of you make sure you have that perfected before trying with a recall, keep it fun.

[kelpiecuddles]

OK thanks guys. I probably won't have these issues once I start down where kelpie-i is next year. The problem I have here is that there is only one class group other than the raw beginners generally and as such the class is expected to work at the same rate as the least advanced member of the class. For example, Sascha does a fantastic sit stay and come off lead (and generally finishes nicely right in front of me in sit) but we aren't allowed to practice this at class usually as there are some dogs there that won't even do a sit stay. I haven't got anything against the owners of these dogs, the problem is in the way that classes are run . We also aren't allowed to work our dogs off lead, even if they will do it because there are many dogs in the class that are only beginners (after puppy school)

Unfortunately this means that the only way we will ever actually progress is if I work at home. Once I am down at Tulla though where there are classes for different levels this should be much less of an issue I'm going to see f I can sweet talk one of the agility ladies that I met last week (who was lovely) to help me with her stand for inspection which she does very well for me and will do for other people most of the time but this is obviously a two person job

[kelpiecuddles]

Can I ask you guys another question.

How do I increase her ability to recall when there are distractions around? I know that this is something that comes partly with maturity and I certainly don't expect it of her yet but I would like to do some foundation exercises with her.

This is something that we do when she plays with the agility dogs after training: She is off playing, I call her and she comes and sits in front of me recieves a treat, pat, etc. and is given the free command again at which point she may go back to playing.

She achieves this exercise about 50% of the time and when she doesn't it is generally a REALLY GOOD distraction

Is this a suitable exercise? Do you have any other suggestions?

[haven]

This is something that we do when she plays with the agility dogs after training: She is off playing, I call her and she comes and sits in front of me recieves a treat, pat, etc. and is given the free command again at which point she may go back to playing.

She achieves this exercise about 50% of the time and when she doesn't it is generally a REALLY GOOD

I think that rewarding her by allowing her to go back to playing with the other dogs is an excellent strategy.

However, if there is too much distraction, don't even ask. If she only comes to you 50% of the time then 50% of the time she learns that she doesn't have to.

Try it on lead and a distance away from the other dogs, so there is less distraction and you have her under control.

Personally I prefer to leave advanced training to older dogs. While a dog of 7mths is certainly capable of physically doing the excersise, stay work and advanced commands can create a lot of stress for a dog without the maturiy to handle it.

[kelpiecuddles]

This is why I have not been placing too much emphasis on the recall under distraction, it's just that my three year old dog is hopeless at recall when there are distractions around so I didn't want to miss the boat so to speak.

As far as training young dogs in stay,etc. and the worry of doing it too early I was actually quite surprised how ell she took to it as it is probably her best exercise. She sits there with a look of wonderful anticipation on her little furry face waiting for the command that means she can come and sit in front of mummy. I'm certainly not pushy with my training(if you met my other dog you would know ) she just loves it soooo much and I feel like I am kind of dissapointing her if I'm not teaching her something new. Her latest trick is stand, stay and she is getting good at it and will even allow me to do an 'inspection'

At some stage I'll get OH to take some piccies of her training.

[kelpiecuddles]

BTW thanks for the advice on the 50% issue, I think I will only expect recall from her when I have partial attention and then as she gets older I will expect it during more distracting situations. If I think she is not gooing to do it I will collect her with the lead from now on.

[agilwn]

I agree with the others that it's best to wait with some of the advanced training until the puppy is older and attention span a little longer lol

But, in my experience, it works well to teach drop/sit recalls by leaving the dog in a stay and moving out a distance. Call the dog to you and when they reach you, give sit/down command. Back up a few steps (say stay if you need) and call again. This has worked with all of my dogs and is a very gentle method. As you keep doing this, gradually you can give sit/down command while the dog is a little further from you until you can go the full distance you'd like call and give the drop any time you like and the dog will obey. Other good thing is that this doesn't require a second person if it's not convenient at the time you're training. ^_^

Good luck.

[Kelpie-i]

Hi KC

Drive training will bring out the best in Sascha. If she's an eager beaver now, then be prepared for an explosion!

When training using drive, the dog will perform exercises quite easily and stress free. She has the basics, it's a matter on working with those and expanding slowly and steadily.

As the other posters have stated, don't push too hard and expect things from her that may be beyond what she knows. Remember that you have on averge of 10-12 years with your dog....why rush!

IMO, I personally don't totally believe that 7 months is too young to start learning some advanced skills, especially with a dog that has been bred and built to work such as yours. With herding, this is the right age to start working the dog in higher stress situations but this doesn't mean you push it to the limit either.

Her attitutude towards training will dictate to you when you've gone far enough.

Edited coz I carnt spel

Edited November 9, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[kelpiecuddles]

Don't worry we don't push it at all. Yesterday was awfully hot here so she didn't get a walk before training last night (it had cooled down by then) she was distracted and far too energetic to do training properly so we called it quits after the first half and went over and played with the agility dogs. She even did some work on the equipment which she loved(no jumps yet of course), she did curvy tunnels like she'd been doing them for years and it was here first try It was more play than training and she had a ball

[haven]

Sascha has always been good at her sit/drop stays and then trotting ina nd sitting in front of me and then returning for a nice finish. I am now trying to develop her sitting or dropping part way through the recall. I use a seperate command for this so that she can expect another command (come for a standard call in and forward for a sit/drop on the move).

Just wanted to metion something in case you have not considered it:

Personally I would not train this way because you are creating a pattern for your dog, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I can see undesirable implications.

If you use the forward command and always interupt the recall with another command then she is going to anticipate the command coming and her recall (to this command) will probably become very slow and hesitant.

Secondly, if you never interupt your origional recall command with a static command, then she may never respond to one. If you are recalling her and need her to stop, she will probably keep on coming because that is the pattern.

Neither of these things may bother you, I just wanted to ensure you were aware of them.

[kelpiecuddles]

I see your point Haven, the only reason I use a seperate command it because this is what I was advised to do at training. I think that I will use the seperate command until I have her doing it and then gradually incorporate the two until she only has one recall command, rather than confusing her at this stage.

[haven]

Like I said it's not necessarily a bad thing, I wouldn't kile it but that's just me. Training in two commands has advantages too but if you're going to stop using ine then i would stop now because it's going to be much more confusing when she has been fully trained in both. Or just keep using both, like i said it's your preference.

Your dog, not mine

[kelpiecuddles]

Now that you have mentioned it, it is starting to bother me

I intend to take her through to obedience and agility trials so it might be detrimental in the long run. I'm starting a new obedience club soon so I'll get some help when I get down there. I'm not concentrating too much on this command as yet because I have found that I really need two people to train her in it so I'd like to see some different methods