Nothing In Life Is Free

[PAX]

Erny,

At the last trial i went to (Port Macquarie) they ran Encouragement Novice, Open and UD after the competitors had finished and the same judges judged it. It was excellent and a lot of people had a go in the next level. I wish they always did it.

[JENCOL]

hehehe will have to try NILIF program on myself! LOL, NO jen you cannot have that chocolate until after you've done 100 sit ups hahaha(as if!)

Nothing in my dogs lives is free, I paid for the lot!

Sorry will run away and practise being good now.

.................................................No sit girl you aint getting my croissant...................................................

................Bad Jenny go sit in your corner

[JENCOL]

Off to see my psyciatrist now Sorry but the term NILIF is sooooooooo True

[sidoney]

LOL, NO jen you cannot have that chocolate until after you've done 100 sit ups hahaha(as if!)

I wish I had this much self control. "You can go on DOL AFTER [insert undesired activity here]"

[haven]

all you good NILIFers will be able to correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was okay for YOU to go to your dog to give a pat etc, but you should ask them to do something if they come to you to ask for pats/ball/food.

I don't agree with this 100%

NILIF (nothing in life is free) says it all in regards to times when your dog wants a pat or play: You want something from me, do something for me first.

However, as I said in my earlier post, too much non-contingent reinforcement has implications other than leadership. Why should your dog sit for a pat when you just walked over and gave him one for nothing?

[Lablover]

I am a bit tired.

As I have multiple labs in the house, I cannot throw rewards when they obey me. Even if I had one dog, I could well imagine breaking every light fitting and ornament.

Help this pitiful person, to compile a list of opportunities to ask of the dogs while inside.

Before feeding.

While opening the outside doors for them.

When they bring a present, like their food bowl to tell me its dinner time.

When they come up for a pat/hug/kiss.

Before they are allowed on the lounge or bed.

What is some more everyday chances we have?

PS I do not need to throw the reward, but all the same it would be tiresome to carry one around.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Lablover

[haven]

Anytime you like. The way I see it your dogs should see any command as the opportunity to get reinforcement, not a specified time, area, event etc.

[Lablover]

Anytime you like. The way I see it your dogs should see any command as the opportunity to get reinforcement, not a specified time, area, event etc.

OK. Party pooper. In jest, in jest, in jest.

I have to leave for a second now, one of my dogs is scratching at the door to come in. I wish the old girl had learnt how to open the screen door, like a couple of other ones have.

[pawsaroundoz]

I have often pondered the same sort of questions LL (probably acounts for my headaches too)

The trap i think is that i tend to talk to the dogs way too much when they are with me all the time and I wonder if they they then turn off a bit when one is training?

All i ask when they are inside is that they don't play 'crazy dog' and mostly lay on their mats....but i do talk to them a fair bit...

annie carlin and clancy

[Erny]

all you good NILIFers will be able to correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was okay for YOU to go to your dog to give a pat etc, but you should ask them to do something if they come to you to ask for pats/ball/food.

I don't agree with this 100%

NILIF (nothing in life is free) says it all in regards to times when your dog wants a pat or play: You want something from me, do something for me first.

However, as I said in my earlier post, too much non-contingent reinforcement has implications other than leadership. Why should your dog sit for a pat when you just walked over and gave him one for nothing?

For the most part, Haven, I agree with you, but IMO there is a "depends" factor here ..... Eg. Attention seeking and/or Jumping up at you type dog. You ignore. Dog stops and goes away somewhere else (because its goal was not achieved). You approach and pat. The pat/attention builds on the dog's non-attention demanding behaviour.

Having said that, I usually (where appropriate and possible) suggest the owners do a recall and then they're free to interact with their dog. But there are the odd occasions when I don't recommend this.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Erny

[Lablover]

I have often pondered the same sort of questions LL (probably acounts for my headaches too)

The trap i think is that i tend to talk to the dogs way too much when they are with me all the time and I wonder if they they then turn off a bit when one is training?

All i ask when they are inside is that they don't play 'crazy dog' and mostly lay on their mats....but i do talk to them a fair bit...

annie carlin and clancy

Annie,

I gave up trying to speak sentences to my labs years ago.

Silence (using my body language), or one word is enough, nowdays.

I found videoing myself or asking a trainer partner, is the one of the best things I have ever done. That, LOL, and understanding how long I have to stay on drills for, prior to moving on, and what to ignore which will be fixed up later. And what NOT to ignore. Its a mess. Fun though.

[haven]

all you good NILIFers will be able to correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was okay for YOU to go to your dog to give a pat etc, but you should ask them to do something if they come to you to ask for pats/ball/food.

I don't agree with this 100%

NILIF (nothing in life is free) says it all in regards to times when your dog wants a pat or play: You want something from me, do something for me first.

However, as I said in my earlier post, too much non-contingent reinforcement has implications other than leadership. Why should your dog sit for a pat when you just walked over and gave him one for nothing?

For the most part, Haven, I agree with you, but IMO there is a "depends" factor here ..... Eg. Attention seeking and/or Jumping up at you type dog. You ignore. Dog stops and goes away somewhere else (because its goal was not achieved). You approach and pat. The pat/attention builds on the dog's non-attention demanding behaviour.

Having said that, I usually (where appropriate and possible) suggest the owners do a recall and then they're free to interact with their dog. But there are the odd occasions when I don't recommend this.

But in your example, if the dog sees the pat as reward for being quiet it is not non-contingent reinforcement.

Note also that I said too much rather than any non-contingent reinforcement can have negative effects.

[ReXy]

im trying the nothing in life is free concept with dodge as he is sometimes little over bearing like bowl the kids over for a kiss and cuddle..lol which they dont mind of course but not particually good maners for a dog i think... so he is slowly learning sit nicely and u will get lots of pats and cuddles and maybe even a biscuit if ur a goood boy...

[Erny]

..... he is sometimes  little over bearing like bowl  the kids over for a kiss and cuddle..... so he is slowly learning  sit nicely and u  will get lots of pats and cuddles  and maybe even a biscuit if ur a goood boy...

Well done, Lablover1. Assuming the "biscuit" represents your dog's primarily preferred reward and also assuming your dog's only just beginning to learn this, perhaps try giving him primary reward for the wanted behaviour on a continual schedule of reinforcement (ie every time), and then, when the behaviour is reliable, switch to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, where the primary reward is given every 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 3rd (etc. - if you get my drift?) time, with the pats/cuddles on the times he doesn't receive the food treat.

Does this make sense?

ETA: Make a point not to get stuck with showing him the food (beyond the first, say, 5 times) to get the behaviour, though, as then you leave yourself wide open to having to "bribe" him to get him to behave as you wish.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Erny