Luxating Patella

[Kristina]

But really... no matter the breed a breeder should NOT breed a dog with Luxating Patella, especially when it is obviously genetic.

Is it??? How do you know it's genetic?? The vets can't agree on it, so if you know that is a fact then please present it to the vets, etc, so the rest of the world can find a cure.

Megz, as you'll find, if you do start to breed, first good luck in finding a truly sound one, and when you do please get in touch with me. And as some have said, a lot of breeders don't know what to look for, so therefore can't sell you a pup saying it's fine, when they have no idea.

I've stupidly asked the club and other breeders here about it all, and my friend tried to get some tests made voluntary so at least we could keep track of what's where, etc. But it all feel on deaf ears, and created a lot of fights.

PL is a touchy subject, and i think it's because as breeders it's bloody frustrating, you can mate two sound dogs, and a pup will have it, also you can mate two low graded pups and get a sound one. No one knows exactly what causes it, or what's the best way to fix it. That's why if you have to operate, go to a specialist not the vet.

X rays can not tell you if the pup has it or not, no matter what age. And you can't get an idea about it at a young age either, if you can, then that pup will be very bad within months.

I tell my buyers about the history of parents, i don't try to predict what grade if any the pup will have, all i can do is make them aware of it, and i ask them to let me know about the dogs legs later on, so i can keep some records.

I really think if we all got together and put our records together surely there'd be some clue as to how to beat it, but most are not intrested.

As for your girl, sounds like she wasn't socialised well, with your next pup, get it out everywhere daily and get it used to the world, then you'll be able to show it. If you take her to shows now, just to watch, she might learn to accept it in time and then you could try showing her, mainly so you can learn about the show world.

The only time i'd operate on any of my dogs is if they were in pain, no other reason.

As for your breeders response, she sounds all over the place and worried that you might take it further. What exactly do you want from her? Doesn't sound like you'd want the dog replaced, so what's left? If your girl is nice and close to the standard, then i'd breed from her, just find a male that's lower grade then her.

[Steve]

LP Is not necessarily genetic at all . Some breeds do have a genetic tendency to this but the problem is polygenic and its impacted on by diet and exercise.

The diet thats been fed is not real posh Cooked mince gives too much phosphorous, too little calcium [ by ratio] The diet thats been described has no vitamins as these are destroyed by heat and storage and no enzymes .

The problem is caused because the ligament is stretched and the body doesnt have the necessary nutrients to contract back correctly . You need minerals in the correct ratio especially magnesium,and zinc with vitamins to help them assimilate . Also the problem is most definitely impacted by exercise and this may easily have been caused by jumping up and down off the furniture.

No amount of testing on the part of the breeder can ever insure that some dogs wont get the problem . And eliminating all dogs with mild problems wont do any good and will drastically reduce the gene pool.

Also before any decision [re a diagnosis] needs much more than has happened here.

There's lots you can do to try to reverse this if you go into action straight away .

[Megzz]

As for your girl, sounds like she wasn't socialised well,

Actually I took her down the street with me EVERY day, I walked up to random strangers & got them to handle her. I took her into shops, I took her to peoples places when I went to visit them. I took her on walks with my friend & HER dog. I took her to my mums farm with all her animals. So that's not socialised well is it?.

ETA: I have been in contact with someone who bought a pup from the same breeder & it too has LP as well as a host of other problems. It too is VERY nervous.

Edited November 16, 2005 by Megzz

[Kristina]

At what age did all this happen?

[Megzz]

At what age did all this happen?

It started when she was 10wks (as that's the age I got her at).

because I knew how nervous Chihuahuas can be a made a point of taking her with me regularly.

Edited November 16, 2005 by Megzz

[duckie]

Just a suggestion but I would think that both legs being weakened would be even worse than 1 leg? Whether it is genetic or induced by strain or diet, I wouldn't breed with her as it will cause excess strain on her already damaged patella's causing worse deterioration and possibly pain and suffering ?? ;)

[Megzz]

Just a suggestion but I would think that both legs being weakened would be even worse than 1 leg? Whether it is genetic or induced by strain or diet, I wouldn't breed with her as it will cause excess strain on her already damaged patella's causing worse deterioration and possibly pain and suffering ?? ;)

yeah don't worry I've got no intention of breeding her. She will be desexed & just live out her days as a loved pet

[Kristina]

If she didn't get any outings till that age, no wonder she's like that. 10wks is very close to the closing age of their socialising period, and if her parents are nervous or lacking in good temp, then she needed to be taken out much earlier - by the breeder before going to you.

And socialising shouldn't stop, especially when started so late, they need to keep going out, and i'm not saying you've stopped.

[LouiseofSanrita]

ok, I can't stand to be quiet any longer, ;)

even though in the past I have been slammed for admitting our breed and other toy breeds, not just chihuahuas!! have a real problem with wide spread Patella Luxation. we need to do something.....but I am over that now and have moved on.

the breeders have to admit that we have a REAL problem and now it is pretty hard as Kristina says to buy a dog without the problem now. 20 yrs ago the gene pool wsa much bigger and I was saying the same thing as now. if everyone doesn't admit anything the gene pool (sound one) will get smaller until there's nothing left - prety much nothing left now but dogs with grade 1 and then you put them to grade 1, what do you get grade 1 and worse - ofcourse!!!

I was told to just breed out of those minor faults, like PL and bad mouths and the list goes on. I refused to!! stuck to my guns, I wasn't going to have a dog with these MAJOR problem of movement, a crippled dog because as time goes on the problem gets worse in the dog.....I desexed those dogs and started again. until I got what I wanted and that is better moving dogs.

Now I am not saying I have perfect bloody dogs (contrary to what the breeders are yapping about, Louise thinks she has better dogs than everyone else!! NOT!!!!!!!!) no one has but I am stringent in applying a program to ensure I am breeding from the best dogs I have available to me. my perogative......and its a good step in the right direction admitting the faults of your dogs as they all have faults some major ones that require them to go lame, Im not trying to bury my head in the sand why they are that way, I admit they have something that is genetic and get them desexed and then stop with the excuses.

I can't help it if I am very strict. and I have a standard that I apply to myself can i? becasue of this I have gone through heart ache with owning this breed. and now heart ache with people whispering behind my back too. spreading things that just aren't true with what I said.....

chihuahua breeders think they are on a different level to other breeds, they are not!! they are all dogs that require a strict breeding program and if you don't apply that, we are no better than BYB......they give you excuses and bloody good ones at that!! reg breeders are supposed to work together for the good of our breed not each individual breeder going in their own direction.

all I got is excuses of why we couldn't apply anything and then we got....my dog hasn't got Patella thats the next persons dog, not mine.

and I am off the opinion that a dog that has developed this at an early age being so young the diet hasn't had a chance to kick in so 90% of the time it is herediatary.....and it is difficult to diagnose at a young age say, 8 - 10 - 12 weeks so you run them on to they are fully mature and then you get them tested by as many vets as you can, (all have different grading procedures we found out) and then you go with hte middle ground and then if found to be low then you breed that animal. in maturity and selling animals for breeding in maturity is the only way we can stop this, not hoping for the best as pups, because, yes many breeders don't know what they are looking at, its the vets job to do that, but you can learn how to recognise it....like we did as a family. adn then we didn't breed from those animals.

the only way to control it is to stop breeding that infected animal.

yes steve, the gene pool is small now all because we concentrated on the looks rather than the soundness and now look where we are, the gene pool has dimished and what we have left is PL breeding PL now and it will be hard to get out of that.

when are breeders going to work together to combat this and stop slamming people that take a stand and try to educate us all and get breeders to learn together, who care about the breed enough to try and educate! and stop blaming the people who want to admit our breed has a problem and try to say oh they are on their high horse! they think they are better, what crap!! small minds.

I got out of showing and breeding because of all the politics surrounding all of this. don't need that CRAP....people took it so seriously.....and like Vickie I tried to get a program going and worked out in the end it wasn't worth the hassle of politics and the nasty things said behind my back!!!!!!!!!! fell on deaf bloody ears. don't want any of it now.

and ofcourse now tongues will be wagging again....but you know what

I DON"T CARE say what you all like....talk all you like. I know I tried my best to stick up for our breed and tried to make it better for dogs and people.....

Ias I found out, most didn't want to know and didn't want the hassle because apparently PEOPLEa re more important than the breed and how down hill it will go all because breeders won't work together......

Im off now....to calm down. and Kristina stop laughing I know I am a hot head.....

Louise

[LouiseofSanrita]

I got out of showing and breeding because of all the politics surrounding all of this. don't need that CRAP

just was going to add to that, sounded like i was retreating because of tongues wagging. Im rather having a break, not for good.

I know like in the past, (and there has already been 500 plus people viewing this thread so I would say word has already spread that we are at it again ;) )what happens is, breeders read my comments and prolly say good we got rid of her, apparently its a dictatorship Im not allowed to say anything against the injustice of the whole thing .....because it makes all chi people look bad.

because of people talking behind my back, not going to let it stop me from having my chihuahuas EVER......been with them too long for that!!!

its just people talking......being nasty spreading untrue rumours. and to think when I didn't say much to anyone kept to myself, how nice everyone was, as soon as you try and tackle something important for your breed, its funny how they all turn against you.

wont let anyone chase me out of this breed.

Edited November 17, 2005 by LouiseofSanrita

[LouiseofSanrita]

;) Kristina, I know we have a difference of opinion here.

but I am in agreeance with Megzz, my first chihuahuas (you know this story) were very timid, timid bred timid and soon turned bitters.... so temp became priority I found through using several lines its very easy to get them back on track if they have a solid base, i.e. mum/dad/grandparents all friendly.

once its there very hard to breed out. I got in later years, better tempermented dogs and yes, I get the occassional timid temp, we all do can't get out of that, if I get slack on socialisation as pups, but the majority have been very good in temp. all because I concentrated on breeding dogs with friendliness.

so no matter what you do with that pup at any age, I started when mine were 6 wks. the ones with solid bases seemed to thrive on socialisation, timid ones seemed to go worse adn it takes a long time to get them out of that to be just calm enough.....so I got some trainers saying you are frightening them by taking them out and still others said, you didn't do enough, hmmm yeah.....but the dogs are going to be what their natural selfs no matter what you do, its the genes that are too strong to override socialisation techniques.....best answer is to breed them with a better temp.....and I did it all like Megzz they still go timid. damn annoying....you can train them and "mask" it as we talked about.....as other trainers said, but never completely works to turn the dog into a friendly happy-go-lucky dog, genes do that for you.

you can make them a better dog by yes, continuing to socialise them, its a never ending process with dogs Im not saying don't ever socialise them it will do not good.... I hope people don't get this out of what Im stating here. chihuahuas, like all dogs, have to be constantly socialised otherwise they turn feral.... like any dog ofcourse.

my first timid ones, I trained it out and they were very good on the table not shying away at all but any sudden movements and they would bite, yes BITE....thats bad.....I continued to socialise them by taking them to shows every week so thats what you do and then they calm down to the point that people can't tell they are shy dogs its all in the handling, so Megzz, you can train youyr girl to get use to it all by keep taking her to shows where she sees dogs and people, two different situations. its ok to have a dog that is people friendly but how do they react to other dogs? you need both to make a good show dog.....

Kris....you've had dogs like that too that you had to work on, to get use to it all.....then they both became champions.....chihuahuas are funny creatures they are generally reserved and it takes a while to warm up, most, some are naturals, some aren't........but once a timid/shy dog always a timid/shy dog they don't change, its like people too!!! I should know.

Edited November 17, 2005 by LouiseofSanrita

[Megzz]

If she didn't get any outings till that age, no wonder she's like that. 10wks is very close to the closing age of their socialising period, and if her parents are nervous or lacking in good temp, then she needed to be taken out much earlier - by the breeder before going to you.

And socialising shouldn't stop, especially when started so late, they need to keep going out, and i'm not saying you've stopped.

well I didn't get her till she was 10wks. She was also flowen down from SA. I take her down the street with me at least twice a week plus on short walks with my friend & her dog

[LouiseofSanrita]

Megzz...without telling us the name of the breeder, ofcourse.....was this breeder a show breeder. ;) if they weren't they aint gona socialise Kristina. or maybe they just didn't have time to socialise......sometimes happens.

A show breeder, breeds their pups hoping that one or two will be for showing so will socialise the whole litter......even the pups that won't make it as show dogs. because you can never be sure who is the pick until they get much older, they change so much chihuahuas. sometimes you can tell but sometimes you can't.....

some breeders are of the opinion too, that it frightens them too much and makes them worse - heard that from a few. I usually say RUBBISH....better for them if they are socialised as early as possible. so hence no socialising and also yet others think becasue of their small size, they are goign to pick up something. so they stay locked up till usually the course of injections finish at 16 weeks. and then they socialise which is way too late.

but it just depends on lines and dogs because they could just have that inbuilt timidness that nothing is going to get them out of. no matter how much you socialise. take it from me on that one. tried that for too many years.

I just hold mine and take them where other dogs haven't been at 6 weeks. and the line i have now thrive on that.

Louise

[Megzz]

Megzz...without telling us the name of the breeder, ofcourse.....was this breeder a show breeder. ;) if they weren't they aint gona socialise Kristina. or maybe they just didn't have time to socialise......sometimes happens.

yes it was a show breeder.