Training Discussion - Head Halters

[Erny]

Has anyone here had an opportunity to trial the new Black Dog "infin8" head collar yet?

[Staff'n'Toller]

Has anyone here had an opportunity to trial the new Black Dog "infin8" head collar yet?

Yep.

[Erny]

Cheeky SR.

So you gonna tell? Do you find, from control point of view: similar; better etc?

From dog acceptance of head collar point of view: similar to the various views already expressed in this thread; better?

Is it required to fit as snugly/tightly as other head collars? (say, compared to Gentle Leader?)

[Herr Rottweiler]

So you gonna tell?

I thought we agreed not to tell things in this thread j/k

[Erny]

So you gonna tell? 

I thought we agreed not to tell things in this thread j/k

Ooops! Sorry. Mum's the word .....

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ok well...

I've probably fitted half of them to dogs who were already wearing the Blackdog originals.

The other half I have fitted to dogs who've never worn one before...and of those ones it is generally not how I like to fit them i.e. I didn't have alot of time with these dogs, and I prefer to send the owners away for a week to put it on-treat, take it off, put it on-feed their meal, take it off. Then when they return to me I'll clip a lead on and spend 10mins or so easing the dog into it.

In saying that though, the latter dogs have taken to it quite well, no worse and perhaps a bit better than fitting a normal halter.

No it doesn't have to fit as snugly, as the collar part where the lead clips to- is actually a martingale- or one of their 'training collars', the nose band goes over and under, and clips to a very small clip on the other side. Where it crosses over is way back under the dogs chin, so they can open their mouths pretty much fully I would say. The nose strap being nice and thin, sits lower on the dogs nose, and because there is no lead clipped to it, it doesn't move or ride up under the dogs eye.

The amount of correction over the nose is directly related to how much correction you are giving on the martingale, so for those that are familiar- the wider you set the strap that threads through the collar, the more of a correction it gives.

So, the advantages are that it's a martingale first, halter second, when you give a correction, the martingale corrects first, then the halter over the top of the dogs nose, but there is nothing much happening to irritate the dog under the mouth.

You can train the dog to heel or walk without pulling, then theoretically remove the nose band, and the dog is already used to the feeling of the martingale.

It removes the fear of doing damage to a dogs neck, because you can't really turn the head.

I would still use the original one for dogs that eyeball in classes, as you can turn their head and change their focus with relative ease, and dogs that may be aggressive, because you can use an original double connected, and as long as they are not a huge danger or of huge size and weight, it can take the place of the muzzle when handlers are shown the right way to close the mouth quickly in an emergency situation.

The infin8 is an interesting piece of equipment....I'm curious to see where they go...at Blackdog they are doing the right thing too by only releasing them to trainers at the moment, and I had a fitting lesson from the maker before he allowed me to take some to try.

Cheers,

Mel.

ETA: I've never routinely used or sold the Gentle Leaders, out of all the designs I like them the least, I think they just don't work well for many breeds.

Edited November 13, 2005 by StaffordsRule

[Erny]

Thanks Mel .... your comments/thoughts on the "infin8" were explained well.

I know what you mean about being more difficult to introduce unless the owners can follow through at home for a week. The training that I do commonly doesn't allow that luxury either.

Mel:  The nose strap being nice and thin, sits lower on the dogs nose, and because there is no lead clipped to it, it doesn't move or ride up under the dogs eye.

Do you find (or have you had opportunity to find) that the "thin" strap cuts in easily (eg. for over the top exciteable/pully/lunging type dog .... aggressive or otherwise). I found that a disadvantage with the Gentle Leader. The slightly wider nose strap of the Halti, or the thicker webbing type material of the original "Black Dog" didn't have the same degree of tendancy to do this.

Mel:  The amount of correction over the nose is directly related to how much correction you are giving on the martingale, so for those that are familiar- the wider you set the strap that threads through the collar, the more of a correction it gives.

Note: My emphasis in bold .... not Mel's

Being able to modify the intensity of the correction received via adjustment of the "tool" is by the sounds, a useful concept.

Mel:  It removes the fear of doing damage to a dogs neck, because you can't really turn the head.

This is the other part that most interests me (aside from adjustment of correction intensity).

Mel:  ETA: I've never routinely used or sold the Gentle Leaders, out of all the designs I like them the least, I think they just don't work well for many breeds.

I have found the same myself. Given the design requirement to fit tightly, I have experienced more "shut down" reactions than I have with the others I've tried. Generally, I have used either Black Dog or Halti. However, if I could not achieve a satisfactory 'fit' from either of those, I would use a GL. If the dog has aggression issues, though, I tended not to use the Halti, as I find the dogs can more easily slip the nose band, particularly where the handlers are not yet adept in their handling skills.

Thanks again, Mel - that answered my initial general questions perfectly.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

Do you find (or have you had opportunity to find) that the "thin" strap cuts in easily (eg. for over the top exciteable/pully/lunging type dog .... aggressive or otherwise).  I found that a disadvantage with the Gentle Leader.  The slightly wider nose strap of the Halti, or the thicker webbing type material of the original "Black Dog" didn't have the same degree of tendancy to do this.

Ahhh yep good question, as I actually asked this at Blackdog when I was learning how to fit them- nope no rubbing...when I said 'thinner' I should have really said in width, no the actual thickness of the strap- it's the same thickness of the strap (the coloured part) of the orginal halters so no problems there...Blackdog have had the prototype out now for at least 6mths and haven't noted any rubbing...and actually because the whole band is all in one and flat- I would say it's even less likely to do so.

I have had *one* dog, a very difficult shepherd that learnt to pull on the original halter, and it did break the skin, by constant pulling. I fitted it, and it was working well for me, but back in the owners hands for a week and this resulted...a small sore probably 2mmX2mm, hence we chose another piece of equipment because at that time we could, and their aim was for their teenage kids to be able to walk the dog.

I have found the same myself.  Given the design requirement to fit tightly, I have experienced more "shut down" reactions than I have with the others I've tried.  Generally, I have used either Black Dog or Halti.  However, if I could not achieve a satisfactory 'fit' from either of those, I would use a GL.  If the dog has aggression issues, though, I tended not to use the Halti, as I find the dogs can more easily slip the nose band, particularly where the handlers are not yet adept in their handling skills.

Yep totally agree there, I have tried the GL on one of my dogs, and didn't like it, I have also seen many dogs where the GL didn't fit properly and another brand would have been a better choice. I can see where the halti would slip, I would call that material slippery- and I could imagine once it was off the nose it could also slip off from behind the back of the head also.

Cheers,

Mel.

Edited November 13, 2005 by StaffordsRule

[Annie Oakley]

Comment here by an amatuer - simply a dog owner and not a trainer (me!)...

I was advised to get a Black Dog head halter for Ebony as she is darn strong and still learning who the boss is. I got taught to introduce it to her slowly and we got to the point where she would wear it whilst on our evening walk, but without the lead attached to it yet. This weekend just gone I tried the lead on the halter and she went mental after being completely (I thought) used to it when the lead wasn't attached to it. Now one of the under chin straps is just about torn through and I fear it is useless. Should I get another one and try again or try a different technique?

[Erny]

Should I get another one and try again or try a different technique?

AO - IMO, I'd suggest a different tool but have a trainer experienced and knowledgeable in its correct use to show you how to use it and what training technique to apply.

Not to say that with patience and perserverance you'd probably work through your dog's loathing/annoyance at the head collar pressing on the many sensitive nerve endings on her nose ......

[Annie Oakley]

Not to say that with patience and perserverance you'd probably work through your dog's loathing/annoyance at the head collar pressing on the many sensitive nerve endings on her nose ......

Had no idea about that...thought she simply didn't like it because she wasn't used to it! Explains why she could tolerate it on but not in use.

I have been shown how to correct Skye with a check chain for pulling, not sure if this is suitable for Ebony though as she might do herself harm with all the pulling to begin with...might start with small sessions at home rather than on a walk.

The point of Ebony being fitted with a head halter was at her training (which is not with ADT) she was getting quite boisterous during theory time and I was told it would give me more control over her when she is supposed to be calm, as well as preventing the pulling when walking.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: its probably more accurate to say that; You need to find a reputable trainer who can sort this, they will explain what tools are available & prescribe one to help you over come the training problem.

I think this is better than, I have the X (tool) what trainer can help me use it.

Its in the end about getting results & keeping your dog & you happy.