Training Discussion - Head Halters

[Herr Rottweiler]

Hi anne,

Oh that poor dog. How long did you have this dog before you discovered he had a check chain embedded in his neck?

I carefully go over and examine every dog I take in here for any physical problems and for lumps and bumps. I check eyes, ears, teeth, feet and the whole body of the dog.

About 1 week. I couldn't touch him before that. He didn't know me or trust me so I had to wait until he was okay. We have a very strict policy about checking dogs and I have a very keen eye for issues these days.

I wonder how many trainers here who state they do not like the head collars have actually trained a dog/dogs using this tool. There is a right way and many wrong ways to use a head collar and I would be interested in the opinions of any trainer who does have actual hands on experience with a head collar.

On and off for 5 years or more. they weren't even known as gentle leaders only Haltis when I first used one, (I know they're slightly different). I have recommended them before and I wont argue anyone out of using one if they really want to but I just like everyone to know what alternatives exist and them show them proper usage of those techniques.

Before I used a prong collar I was against them as a training tool. I had no experience with them and I was basing my opinion on the appearance of them. My opinion was uneducated.

Anne that's big of you to make that admission. Most people are terrified by the look of a prong collar but quickly warm to them when they realise how they work.

[Guest Tess32]

What are prong collars mostly used for? Can they be a complete substitute for a check chain?

Nat

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

I wonder how many trainers here who state they do not like the head collars have actually trained a dog/dogs using this tool. There is a right way and many wrong ways to use a head collar and I would be interested in the opinions of any trainer who does have actual hands on experience with a head collar.

K9: the reason I have listed the three collars I believe in is that they are the only ones that passed all of my own personal tests.

I have put halters through those tests also, & they didnt favour.

The tests I complete are always carried out on a variety of dogs & assessed both for functionability, purpose & results.

Tess:

What are prong collars mostly used for? Can they be a complete substitute for a check chain?

K9: yes, however they are a lot more effective.

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

What tests did you put the head halters though K9?.

K9: rather than bore you with a complete list of tests, the main test that was failed was the stability time of the dog.

Strap halter on, takes the dog too long to get used to it before effective training can begin.

I like to start training in pack drive, when the dog is in avoidance, that cant happen.

I did allow many dogs plenty of time to settle down, then train other things, but I found that when they felt tension come on from the halter, they just went back into avoidance.

Sure it seemed like I was getting the dog to do things, but training wasnt occuring.

EG: large dog comes in pulling owner around, I put prong on & if I leave out discussion 3 minutes later they can walk on loose leash.

[Erny]

A:

What tests did you put the head halters though K9?.

K9: rather than bore you with a complete list of tests, the main test that was failed was the stability time of the dog. Strap halter on, takes the dog too long to get used to it before effective training can begin.

This is also the difficulty with dogs left for boarding and training - the training time increases significantly, not something ideal for dog owners, who are paying for the board and training and also are looking forward to their dogs coming home.

ETA: BTW, I'm regularly (ie at least once a week) involved in the coaching of people utilising/training head collars on their dogs.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Erny

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Steve K9Pro]

A":

K9 you would have been surprised at the lack of reaction from my dog when the Halti

K9: for me, its about getting pack drive, also, it wasnt about how quick A dog could get used to it, its the results I see over say 50 dogs...

[Erny]

Dogs placed in boot camp for training I have to say seems an exercise in futility.  Is is not the owner who gets trained in how to manage the dog? 

I guess that depends on the training facilities and the services they offer. Which ones do you know of that don't extend explanation, demonstration and ongoing lessons?

Anne: It certainly is not something I would ever do and I will admit I tend to try and disuade anyone who mentions to me they are considering this.

Perhaps you're not always doing these people a favour? Some people find the training daunting and impossible (and often blame their dogs) and so don't attend training. When their dog is trained for them and they see what their dogs can do, they often become enthused to train and recognise their dog was always capable of training, but that they (the owners) simply weren't aware how to teach it.

Anne:  If you feel that the time taken to train with the Halti is increased, though this is not my experience then why use it at all?

This is one of the reasons I don't.

Anne:  Do the owners, who clearly are not prepared to be active in training their own dogs request the Halti be used?

Not in my experience. I tend to find they're really impressed with the skills their dogs have learnt and are more than happy to continue in the same manner and equipment as they were trained in.

ETA: As I mentioned above, seeing what their dogs are capable of often inspires the owners to continue training and to strive to become adept in it themselves.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Erny

[Guest Tess32]

Another question for trainers: Do you find that people do use head collars, prongs, check chains, with the view to eventually progressing to a flat or martingale collar?. This was my aim and this is what we have done.

I had that same discussion on here I believe, and a few of the trainers said no, they continue having their dog wearing a checkc hain.

K9 - Why do you think prongs are more effective than check chains?

Nat

[Herr Rottweiler]

Anne: Dogs placed in boot camp for training I have to say seems an exercise in futility. Is is not the owner who gets trained in how to manage the dog? It certainly is not something I would ever do and I will admit I tend to try and disuade anyone who mentions to me they are considering this. I attempt to persuade them to be involved in the training themselves. Do you end up with a trained dog and an owner who hasn't a clue?

Erny: I guess that depends on the training facilities and the services they offer. Which ones do you know of that don't extend explanation, demonstration and ongoing lessons?

Spot on Erny

Anne, the same could be said for all training centres OR for that matter, all trainers. There are trainers AND THEN there are trainers. How many times have I heard people say, "I went here or there and leaned nothing for the past 18 months or so".

Some boarding and training institutes are fantastic and they deliver very good to excellent results which often saves the owners making some troubling decisions about their dogs future.

I agree that owners need to work with their dogs, no question about it but a little kick start never hurt anyone.

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Erny]

Personally I would not send my dog away to boot camp for training. The training of my dog is my job.    My dog = my responsibility.

It's great to hear your dedication and determination. Unfortunately, Anne, not everyone's circumstances and/or opportunities are the same as yours that might permit this, hard won or not. Not suggesting your dog was "easy" - I don't know that one way or the other as I wasn't there. But what's "easy" for one person is "difficult" for another. And, of course, some dogs are harder than others and/or have more/less issues than another. This is part way the necessity for the diversity of private trainers; behaviourists; training schools/clubs; as well as boarding and training facilities.

In addition, though, there's been some people who have their dog trained while they're boarding as an "added service". Yes, they get lots of "out of kennel" activity etc., but some people just want to give their dog more. So they have their dog trained (or the existing training maintained and/or enhanced) as an additional source of activity, enjoyment, and physical and mental stimulation during its stay while their owners are away.

Hear what you say about your inclination to avoid boarding and training facilities (is that "boot camp" to you?) being a personal preference, but perhaps some of the other people/dog combo's you work to disuade might actually benefit ....

ETA: There's many people out there that would abandon their dogs because they can't manage to train them, rather than go to the expense of having them trained. Contrary to the way your statement reads, I don't see people who are prepared and care enough to pay to have their dogs trained as shirking their "responsibility". Quite the opposite.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Erny

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Erny]

As a matter of fact my dog was not 'easy' to train at all.  She was very difficult which is why I had so many problems.  ....

She is totally without aggression towards other dogs or people.  She is also excellent at reading body language so is virtually bomb proof with other dogs and removes herself when there is any sign of aggression from them.

In view of our shaky start and frustrated attempts to train her I am happy with the way she has turned out. 

It's very good you've done so well, Anne. You should be congratulated for your efforts.

Anne:  As for my circumstances and/or opportunities. It was a matter of priorities.

Perhaps not everyone has the same apparent high standard capability as you, might not be able to satiate priorities, or may actually have higher more pressing priorities - some which might not even have been planned of or for, before they acquired their dog/s. Hard (and unfair?) to judge, I guess, unless you're in their shoes. Not suggesting you were judging, of course.

ETA: Just to hark back to my question regarding the Boarding & Training facilities you know of .....

Erny:  ...... Which ones do you know of that don't extend explanation, demonstration and ongoing lessons?

Edited November 11, 2005 by Erny

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Herr Rottweiler]

Anne: Personally I would not send my dog away to boot camp for training. The training of my dog is my job. My dog = my responsibility.

Sadly Anne that's not a shared attitude with quite a lot of dog owners. Some people can't even manage a child properly. Then people suggest, "well they shouldn't own a dog then!" Maybe not, but we're not quite a communist country yet but were working on it.

Anne: Erny anyone I have disuaded from boot camp training for their dogs has gone on to be involved in the training themselves. Ideally that's the way it should be IMO.

I agree that people SHOULD take an active interest in their dogs and take it upon themselves to take responsibility however, as I have stated above, this will NEVER happen in my lifetime and I feel that there should be a service provided for the sake of the dog. In most circumstances, the owner will start to take a positive interest in the dog after their investment AND when they see that there is hope for their dog.

I have been involved in, (to borrow your words) Boot Camp training for many years now and the positives I have gained and the clients have gained have been fantastic. I have seen literally hundreds of dogs come in who have been on their last opportunity with the owner and to have turned that around has been a very humbling experience and a rewarding one I might add when they turn up to classes 6 months later to tell me that their dog still remembers and has learned additional exercises.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to convince you not to do want you feel is right. i'm just offering some educated facts

[Kavik]

Some people also think that sending the dog away to be trained is the way things are done. That may seem strange but through one of my workplaces I know that some owners believe that that when a dog reaches a certain age it is time to send the dog away for training. And sometimes they send the dog away later for maintenance training as well.

[Staranais]

K9: for me, its about getting pack drive

This is probably a stooopid question, but how do you tell if a dog's working in pack drive?

[Erny]

Anne - I tried to be nice as you seem to be a bit over reactive to my posts. I don't see why you can't be conversational rather than eluding back to "the thread being deleted". Provided it's useful and/or on a discussional level, I have no objection to you continuing to respond to my posts if you should change your mind.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Erny