Training Discussion - Head Halters

[Erny]

yes I had some chain collar injury photos somewhere

Can you dig these up and post, Rusky?

I personally haven't experienced or seen check chain injuries .... I don't doubt they happen though. But I have seen frequent 'surface' injuries incurred by headcollars such as rubbing skin to the point of bleeding across the muzzle.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Erny

[Rusky]

Hi Erny I will see if I can find them but you must have seen those pics yourself over the years? I had never seen a halter one before as I couldn't imagine or believe a person leaving them on. Still people are twits.

I don't think the halter injury HR described was a fracture, crating wouldn't stabilise a broken neck. The force used would have been immense to break the dogs neck which is why I sort of assumed it was an abuse case, I missunderstood completely. I think the info HR got was not quite correct.

Thing is doesn't matter if halter/chain/flat collars people still yank their dogs heads around. Is the people that are the problem not the collar.

[Staranais]

Sas:  The force required to fracture bones would have factured bones if the dog was wearing a flat collar or damaged the sensitive neck tissue and throat.

Would it?

A halti exerts far more leverage on a dog's neck vertebrae than a flat buckle collar does, when the same force is applied to the end of the leash. That's not really under debate - everyone knows that is how the halti works. Simple physics would dictate that a tool exerting more twisting leverage on a dogs neck is more likely to injure his spine than a tool exerting less leverage, especially if the dog inadvertently hits the end of the leash at speed.

I'm not saying you can't injure a dog on a flat buckle collar, just that common sense dictates it's easier to injure his spine on a halti. And yes, any tool used correctly can cause injury (though come to think of it, I've never heard of any injuries caused by a harness, so perhaps that tool is exempt?)

[Erny]

Is the people that are the problem not the collar.

Spot on .... and if they're aware of what can happen, they might be more inclined to seek some pro advice before they begin using them.

[Cheyenne_Fury]

Spot on .... and if they're aware of what can happen, they might be more inclined to seek some pro advice before they begin using them.

I really think there needs to be more information on the use of halti's and other head collars, including the possible dangers of incorrect use and actually how to use them properly. People that are selling them should know about the produc and the potential risks etc. so they can advise people who have thought of this as a training tool for their dogs. I admit to having used a gentle leader on Jake my Dalmatian. I was told that this was a more "gentle and effective" method to using a correction chain, and I had had no experience with correction chains so was unwilling to use one. I had someone fit it properly and give me a little instruction lesson on how to use it, but still didn't know about the possible damage it could cause if used incorrectly. I would definately think twice about using one now without instruction/advise from a professional trainer because in inexperienced hands it seems to me that they can do a lot of damage. Not saying that people shouldn't use them, just learn how to use it correctly to minimize any injury that could be done to the dog, it would make life easy and more enjoyable for dog and owner...

Anne

[Herr Rottweiler]

I don't think the halter injury HR described was a fracture, crating wouldn't stabilise a broken neck. The force used would have been immense to break the dogs neck which is why I sort of assumed it was an abuse case, I missunderstood completely. I think the info HR got was not quite correct.

Thing is doesn't matter if halter/chain/flat collars people still yank their dogs heads around. Is the people that are the problem not the collar.

Rusky, I'm not absolute on the ins and outs of the dogs treatment. He did show me the xrays and the hairline fracture was clearly visible. I know that he was not allowed to do anything with the dog at all except walk id outside in a harness to go to the toilet for 6 months untill the dog was re - xrayed and given a clear bill of health.

It's a known fact that people have broken their neck from sneezing! Don't know about dogs though

[Steve K9Pro]

R:

I have a large malamute I used a halti I didn't break her neck.

K9: ??? keep trying??? lol I cant see where anyone suggested every single dog will end up with a broken neck...

R:

I would be very interested to have seen this bloke breaking his dogs neck and am wondering why the heck someone at the training school didn't say

'oy you... stop pulling that dog around, you will hurt her/him'

K9: the last dog, of many, that I seen sustain an injury was a GR, there was no jerking of the leash, I wasnt the trainer either.

The dog was being heeled & another handler threw a ball for his dog, the GR went after & hit the end of a 4 ft leash & then stopped, the dogs head didnt fall off, training continued as normal.

15 minutes later I noted the dog becoming slow to handle, it was in avoidance.

I said nothing as I didnt know what the issue was & I wasnt watching this dog only.

The club instructor told me the next week that the GR was out this week, mid week he ended up at the vet, then the chiro, he has a neck injury...

**********************************

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: hopefull I can shed some light & re aim the thread...

I feel that halters run a higher risk then other tools, I also feel that any competant pro dog trainer can train any dog without one.

Given those basic parameters, I wouldnt recommend one & encourage people to use other tools.

Having said that, anopther issue I have with them is that John Cit can buy one read instructions & from his observation, its a miracle tool, it doesnt say consult a trainer on the pack, it doesnt tell you how to prevent injuries to your dog nor does it say the risks of this happening are moderate.

So whilst ignorance is no excuse, your average 'dog owner is putting his dog a risk, when there isnt a need.

As for those who can competantly use them, well done, & if you are walking down the street with the thought in mind that of the dog lunges, you will reduce the shock load by letting the leash slip through yuour hands, well done.

As someone who deals with fear aggression in dogs regularly & leadership issues daily, I can tell you walking down the street in this frame of mind is certainly not the way to train.

Whilst we can all dig up a photo of some poor dog that some fool has injured with what ever tool, I dont think talking of abuse cases is the way to assess a tool.

I dont use check chains but I also dont believe that a lunging dog will injur itself on one, there needs to be an action (incorrect one) from the hander to make this occur.

The most common injury I have seen on checks is that long haired dogs have had a chunk of hair pulled out when some fool has put a big correction on the dog.

I dont use them as I feel they are less effective than a martingalem, thats the only reason.

Someone who has a pulling dog needs to see a trainer, I have people come to see me from everywhere, QLD, VIC, TAS, NT,WA, PNG NZ, surely people can find one decent local trainer to fix this easy problem.

Its never a case of a certain tool is needed, its that the owner needs to understand & communicate with the dog.

Some tools help that occur, but they will not solve the problem.

Halters to me are a crutch, I wouldnt use one based on the risks...

Not to say they have no positive attributes, but as far as Im concerned, they far from outweight the risks...

K9 out.

[Rusky]

QUOTE 

I have a large malamute I used a halti I didn't break her neck.

K9: ??? keep trying??? lol I cant see where anyone suggested every single dog will end up with a broken neck...

yep that was the point I was making that they won't all end up with a broken neck, keep trying??? wot are you on?

The club instructor told me the next week that the GR was out this week, mid week he ended up at the vet, then the chiro, he has a neck injury...

can anyone at all tell me how why or what the ruddy trainer was doing while the dog was on the end of a long leash wearing a halter??? Throwing a ball?? blimey

I know that he was not allowed to do anything with the dog at all except walk id outside in a harness to go to the toilet for 6 months untill the dog was re - xrayed and given a clear bill of health.

poor dog, yep 6 months would be about right for a hairline fracture ruddy shocking. Usually spinal fractures are unstable, very very lucky dog.

[Erny]

The halti face injury looks like they put it on and left it on, rotters poor dog.

They don't have to be left on to cause flesh injury.

A client used a head collar on her GSD, because the dog would lunge out at other dogs in the vicinity and she said she didn't have the strength to hold the dog back. The head collar was her means of maintaining control.

With all the lunging out, the nose strap was cutting into the skin across the top of the dog's muzzle enough to rub it raw and draw blood.

Whilst the head collar was something the owner needed at the time, the dog no longer wears it ......

Nothing near the injuries of the dog in HR's picture, but injuries all the same. I can only just bear wearing light weight sunglasses across the bridge of my nose. Makes my eyes water sometimes at the thought of the pressure of the nose strap over the dog's muzzle.

[Steve K9Pro]

R:

wot are you on?

K9: adrenalin...lol.

R:

can anyone at all tell me how why or what the ruddy trainer was doing while the dog was on the end of a long leash wearing a halter??? Throwing a ball??

K9: another handler threw the ball for another dog, & the leash was a 4ft heeler leash... not long at all... shorter than that & he may have stringing the dog up, we all know how much pace a dog can achieve in no time...

[Herr Rottweiler]

yes I had some chain collar injury photos somewhere

Can you dig these up and post, Rusky?

I personally haven't experienced or seen check chain injuries .... I don't doubt they happen though. But I have seen frequent 'surface' injuries incurred by headcollars such as rubbing skin to the point of bleeding across the muzzle.

How did you go with those photos Rusky? I'm curious to see thw amount of injury sustained

[Rusky]

No sorry herr rotty I haven't found them, they were a group of abuse pics I had you know with embedded collars, starved dogs, chain collar rubbed the skin off. Some collar injuries were horrific but not caused by training particularly I don't think, just neglect and abuse. One dog had this huge hole where the flat collar clip had penetrated the skin, yuk awful.

All collars need checking regularly, I have honestly never seen a head collar injury pic before however now they sell them in any dollar and dime store it will probably be something seen more often.

[Herr Rottweiler]

I bought a Rotty years ago who was going to be put down because he was left in a back yard and just became stir crazy and aggressive.

After he came to trust me I took him out of the kennel for a play and he was my new best buddy. I was patting him round the top of his neck and I felt a lump that extended around his whole neck! I thought what the hell is this? I took him up to the vet for an xray and they showed them to me when they were done.

It was a correction collar that was left on him, forgotten about, grew so tight that his skin partially grew over it.

Amazingly, after a small surgical removal he was as good as gold. The vets and I were in shock over it. I reported the old owners to the RSPCA for neglect and they were fined $1000.

I rehomed him as a security dog and he had a fantastic, normal healthy life. He lived until 12 and only passed away around this time last year and was morned by his owner.

A very cruel beginning but a happy ending

[Pete]

I agree with you 100% that head halters are a wonderful invention. Despite what is written there are plenty of dog/owners walking their dogs very successfully and using the halter correctly. For every dog that simply will not function with one there is in my experience a dog that has no reaction at all from the first time one is put on.

If you want to know the uses and correct usage of head halters there are websites that you may want to read - http://www.blackdog.net.au/FitHalter.html

http://www.gentleleader.com/pages.cfm?ID=29

http://www.clickandtreat.com/dfogb6.htm

The one thing that does not sit well with me at all is that the dog must be weaned off the head halter. If the dog is going for walks happily with the halter on and the owner is now enjoying the walks too why bother. I say this because hindsind is a wonderful thing. I took my first dog to obedience classes and the dog did everything well except walking on a lead without pulling. I discovered by chance one day the dog did not pull on a harness as we drove to a nice walking spot, the dog did not have his collar on so we had to use the car harness to walk the dog who never pulled once.

I returned to the obedience club with the harness on to show how well behaved my dog now was, no pulling. The instructor insisted the dog had to learn to walk without pulling on the collar and said it should not be walked on a harness. Being young and inexperienced I did what I was told and only walked the dog on a collar from then on - although the dog never learned not to pull.

Edited November 10, 2005 by Pete

[Steve K9Pro]

Pete:

I agree with you 100% that head halters are a wonderful invention.

K9: Hi Pete, welcome to the discussion, but could you tell us who you are agreeing with? The last direction of this thread was those of us pointing out that we didnt like them..

Pete"

Despite what is written there are plenty of dog/owners walking their dogs very successfully and using the halter correctly. For every dog that simply will not function with one there is in my experience a dog that has no reaction at all from the first time one is put on.

K9: Pete if I said that I had seen more than 1000 dogs rubbing their nose on the ground, going into a state of avoidance or panick, are you saying that you have seen 1000 dogs show positive interest in them?

I might just add here that, sometimes it takes a keen eye to see that a dog is in avoidance & not just happily complying..

From the Black dog link you sent

Handling the dog on Lead

A real danger to a dog wearing a Halter is incorrect use of the lead, such as with people who "Correct", as one might use a lead on a choke chain. It is well ingrained in people that one must jerk on a lead to get a dog to respond. Head Halters are akin to Power Steering and the lead should be used gently!  I recommend that a slight rotation of the wrist is all that is needed when a dog is on a Head Halter. The lead should not be held with lots of slack.  Lots of slack in the lead would enable a dog to dash off and gain speed before "correcting itself" when it strikes the end.  Sudden jerks may cause whiplash injuries to a dog's neck, so pay attention to how you work the lead.

k9: Now some parts from it.

The lead should not be held with lots of slack.

K9: define "lots"... No slack is what usually is the result, & like I said earlier, this promotes poor leash handling.

Head Halters are akin to Power Steering

K9: this is the description used for prong collars...

I recommend that a slight rotation of the wrist is all that is needed when a dog is on a Head Halter.

K9: how do you do that? doesnt say.. trial & error?

Sudden jerks may cause whiplash injuries to a dog's neck

K9: from the horses mouth...

so pay attention to how you work the lead.

K9: ? that must be an enjoyable walk, not too much slack, learn to rotate your wrist, pay attention or your dog may sustain an injury? I would be a nervous wreck after a trip round the block.

Safer transporting C4! lol...

From the third link

Even John Wayne Used a Halter

K9: well if its good enough for the Duke... I didnt know e trained dogs though? lol...

Im just having some fun Pete, no offence.

But maybe you could share with us your method, I think that may help us...

[Rusky]

Pete if it is used correctly and both you and the dog are happy is your business no one elses.

For an obedience trial the dog may not wear a head collar, I think maybe the trainer was getting hung up on trial rather than understanding that most people just want a nice walk with their dog.

I did use a halti on Rusky, she is a mal and thought we were doing the Alaskan dog race each time we went walking Interestingly at training or in a training situation she didn't pull, I worked it out eventually

Rusky is 8 now and hasn't worn a head collar in many years, she doesn't pull.

Herr Rotty that is so ruddy shocking about the poor dog and collar, $1000 fine isn't enough but is a start. People put them on as puppies and just never bother to take them off, idiots. I saw one the other day, a re run of the APS New York on fox. Dog with neck injury but was clean not like when the collar has rubbed raw, seems the collar had embeded in the neck and the owner took a box cutter and cut it out.... He went to prison... The beautiful huge shaggy dog recovered.

[Rusky]

Pete:

QUOTE 

I agree with you 100% that head halters are a wonderful invention.

K9: Hi Pete, welcome to the discussion, but could you tell us who you are agreeing with? The last direction of this thread was those of us pointing out that we didnt like them..

Pete"

he is agreeing with the OP and has not read your post

[Herr Rottweiler]

The one thing that does not sit well with me at all is that the dog must be weaned off the head halter. If the dog is going for walks happily with the halter on and the owner is now enjoying the walks too why bother.

Pete, are you aware of how tight a halti is supposed to be fitted to a dogs head?

As K9 pointed out;

K9: Pete if I said that I had seen more than 1000 dogs rubbing their nose on the ground, going into a state of avoidance or panick, are you saying that you have seen 1000 dogs show positive interest in them?

I might just add here that, sometimes it takes a keen eye to see that a dog is in avoidance & not just happily complying..

Pete, no offence intended but is yours an experienced point or an opinion?

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott