Training Discussion - Head Halters

[Erny]

Kelpie-i and Haven - well posted.

I didn't in fact ask any other trainers to throw training suggestions my way in this thread. I don't require their input for an already resolved problem.

My point in commenting was for the people who are having problems with pulling dogs and the fact that  certain people were alluding to the fact that they could well be fools. 

Perhaps, Anne, it would be best to allow those who do have "pulling" problems to ask their own questions - that way, instead of it coming across from you as wanting the trainers to give explanation from A-Z over the net, we can be better informed of what those 'others' you refer to are doing and what contributing factors are involved when their dogs pull and provide, where possible, specific tips/suggestions.

And perhaps it could be done via a different thread (although, as Haven has said, these sorts of discussions have been done in length in a multitude of threads and could be searched for on DOL to see if any of the explanations therein fit), rather than one that has merely asked for the opinions of individuals in relation to head collars.

I also don't think we (trainers) alluded to people who use head collars being fools (from what I can see, that's been your interpretation) - but rather that they perhaps hadn't developed the correct technique to be able to use any other. I don't think I could teach technique with the written word .... at least, not eloquently and not in a way which might not be misunderstood. Before I was taught (by being instructed, shown and corrected where appropriate), I couldn't use other tools properly either, and, had I a dog that pulled I otherwise might have purchased a headcollar. That wouldn't make me a fool. It would've just meant I hadn't learnt yet.

My question about having only ever had one dog who pulls out of 6 large breed dogs remains unanswered.  I can only conclude that there must be no answer.  Is there an answer??

In the absence of seeing your dog and the methods you used and how they were applied, I find this difficult to answer, other than this dog may well have been more willful than the others; more reactive to stimuli than the others; had a different perception of your leadership than the others .....

The only time my dog was allowed the length of the lead was when I gave her the word that allowed her to go and sniff around. We were of course not walking whilst that happened.

"Not walking" doesn't have much to do with it - it's the possibility that the dog could react towards a stimuli and lunge forward and take you by surprise, that remains a risk.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

I know Michael, nice bloke. That's all

Oh I see, and you needed to know how many lessons I had with him and how long I have know him to establish that?

Good that you have reached that conclusion. He is a nice man and a damn good trainer.

oh Anne you silly ol soss! Being a little bit too sensitive and paranoid I feel! Calm down, have a shot of red and take a deep breath

[Herr Rottweiler]

Oh my HR, this sounds nasty.

I'll dig the photo out at some stage, scan it and post it for you to have a look at.

[Kelpie-i]

Calm down, have a shot of red and take a deep breath

I think I may take you up on that advice HR - I particularly like the part about the red.

[Erny]

I'll dig the photo out at some stage, scan it and post it for you to have a look at.

Me too please, HR!

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Herr Rottweiler]

They have absolute control over PM'ing any of the trainers if they want their expertise

[Kelpie-i]

will leave the red wine for the two of you who suggested it. I don't drink alcohol.

I'll have yours then :drunk:

[Rusky]

Herr Rotty

a vertebral fracture of the neck is a broken neck so if the guy fractured the neck vertebra he broke the dogs neck. If the dog wasn't paralysed he was very very lucky.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Herr Rotty

a vertebral fracture of the neck is a broken neck so if the guy fractured the neck vertebra he broke the dogs neck. If the dog wasn't paralysed he was very very lucky.

Hey i'm not going to argue with you on that one and yes you're right the dog was lucky as the vet pointed out.

I finally found the photo of the dog with the injuries to his face from the halti for the list to have a look at.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Herr Rottweiler

[Herr Rottweiler]

and this one, (same dog, different angle)

These were taken 3 weeks after the incident

[Lablover]

I have never used a halti.

Just thought I would pop in this thread and noticed the photos. Poor dog.

Kelpie? Very sad.

[Herr Rottweiler]

The photo's weren't posted to terrify anyone into not using halti's, i simply put them there as educational reference to show fellow DOLers that all devices have the potential to cause harm. Some people have used them for many years without so much as a blemish on their dog.

This is an extreme incident however, it is not an isolated one as I have seen many other examples but I didn't have a camera with me at the time

[Rusky]

yes I had some chain collar injury photos somewhere, also some of 'too tight' collars not removed, is ruddy terrible. The halti face injury looks like they put it on and left it on, rotters poor dog.

So how did the vet stabilise the fracture? do you know, gee is hard with a human am wondering how it works with a dog. I am guessing they put the dog in some sort of straight jacket. Was the owner prosecuted? I can't imagine how much force would be used to cause a fracture I am shuddering at the thought of it. Poor poor dog.

[sas]

The force required to fracture bones would have factured bones if the dog was wearing a flat collar or damaged the sensitive neck tissue and throat.

Let's get to the point, any training aid/tool can harm a dog if used incorrectly, let's take Turbo my Dane, a Head Halter was the only aid (that you can purchase from a petstore) that I could have full control of him as he is fear aggressive, not once has he got a lunge out of me on the head halter, I guess because I know the potenital for damage of a lunging dog I always had him close by and certainly not on a long leash whilst on a head halter. Mind you, how many people do you see give a dog on a head halter a long leash, enough for the dog to turn quickly, run off or lunge, pretty scary really.

We have since swapped to a different training tool which has given us the results we desired very quickly, now one verbal command gets him back to my side, we're on day 4 of not using the head halter.

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks for the pics HR

[Erny]

Let's get to the point, any training aid/tool can harm a dog if used incorrectly ....

I think we did reach this point early in the thread and we're all pretty much in agreement on this score.

Sas:  We have since swapped to a different training tool which has given us the results we desired very quickly, now one verbal command gets him back to my side, we're on day 4 of not using the head halter.

Good on you for your work in progress, Sas. May I ask which tool you switched to?

[Herr Rottweiler]

Thanks for the pics HR

My pleasure ;)

I can back up my chest beating stories you know

[Erny]

Perhaps, Anne, it would be best to allow those who do have "pulling" problems to ask their own questions

Well, in fact someone has done just that earlier on in this thread but none of the trainers replied to her. I wonder why that was. I doubt we will have new people bother to follow her lead in view of that.

I did suggest, as did others, that questions pertaining to tips/suggestions to help specific problems with "pulling" dogs be posted in another thread ... having said that, I couldn't find the person who asked a specific question. Chances are, I've missed it, although I've glanced back over. Perhaps if he/she is having problems and would like to elaborate in a new thread on what he/she is doing, we can jump in there and help (as we often do), or PM one of us, as HR has suggested.

ETA: Have picked up the new thread - she'll be starting training soon, but I am PMing her ...

Aha! An answer!!!

Actually, Anne - Kelpie-i gave you your answer some time back .... this is her quote:

Kelpie-i:  Ann, I would say that the reason one of your dogs continued to pull and the others didn't was probably b/c that particular dog was more determined and head strong than the others or perhaps your training method did not suit that dog and clearly wasn't working.

Anne:  I didn't in fact ask any other trainers to throw training suggestions my way in this thread. I don't require their input for an already resolved problem.

Anne:  Erny - at no stage did I ask trainers to give an A-Z instruction.  I think I mentioned so many times, clearly - "hints"and  tips".  Now that is far from a detailed instruction.

Well, actually, Anne - your request for advice was very general (on many more than one occasion). These are a few:-

Anne:  If it is as easy as some would have us believe to stop a dog from pulling then please tell everyone how it is done.

Anne:  Now I hope that the people who have posted here about their 'experience and expertise' and who can change the behaviour of a chronic pulling dog in a few minutes will reveal their secrets.

Anne:  if you in return pm me the magical cure for a pulling dog.

Then:

Anne:  Though I don't disbelieve the experts I do wonder why they seem reluctant to say exactly how it is done.

This was answered by a number of susequent posts:

Tess32:  Anne - possibly because trainers don't want to give out advice over the net, have a handler do it incorrectly and then blame the method and trainer.  Possibly because they would want to know the dog in question before they give out training advice....

HR:  Some things are best demonstrated. A friend told me that a good demonstartion speaks a thousand words. I would say that's being modest. I would say, more like a million.

K9:  its just not that simple when you dont know the dog or the owner.

but subsequently ignored ...

Herein lies the problem....what is an effective technique?. Why is it no one will explain?

The experts keep telling us how easy/simple it is to fix but they won't tell us how to fix it.

Anne:  I can't figure out why you seem to feel everyone is an idiot and is unable to understand a simple tip given regarding training.

How can we give a "tip" when we don't yet know what the person is already doing and where they are still having problems and what their relationship with their dog is?

As for me making a personal attack.  Could you please direct me to where and to whom?  I doubt you will find one.

The following is hardly a compliment Anne - and if it's not "personal", who is directed to?

Anne:  Fortunately most trainers are happy to help owners have well behaved dogs...geez some of them even assist on the internet for no payment. Those trainers are more concerned about the owner being dragged around than keeping a closed shop. This thread has made me feel lucky I eventually found the trainer we have.

Anne:  What prompted me to comment in the first place was that a couple of 'trainers' were beating their chest about their 'experience and expertise'.

I merely mentioned that I had experience and expertise as an explanation as to perhaps why I don't seem to have any problems with quickly teaching a dog not to pull. I didn't realise that constituted "beating my chest". Feels a bit like another "personal attack" to me.

Anne:  What I observed is that a there was a not too subtle put down of dog owners who had pulling dogs by these chest beaters.

I don't see any where we (assuming we're the "chest beaters" you refer to, lol) have put down dog owners who have pulling dogs. Another slight to those of us here who responded with good intention?

Anne:  I have no interest in playing verbal ping pong with you. I have seen other threads deleted for this very reason and I would hate to see this thread go that way.

I'm no longer sure what your contributions are to this thread is, Anne, other than continuance of the "ping pong" game you weren't interested in ....

Anne:  I do get particularly watchful when I feel these little arrows coming from all directions and hitting me in the back.

The first arrow came from whose bow?

I think you've been unfair in your estimations of the trainers who contribute to DOL.

[Herr Rottweiler]

yes I had some chain collar injury photos somewhere, also some of 'too tight' collars not removed, is ruddy terrible. The halti face injury looks like they put it on and left it on, rotters poor dog.

So how did the vet stabilise the fracture? do you know, gee is hard with a human am wondering how it works with a dog. I am guessing they put the dog in some sort of straight jacket. Was the owner prosecuted? I can't imagine how much force would be used to cause a fracture I am shuddering at the thought of it. Poor poor dog.

No they were instructed to leave it on by a trainer while the dog freaked out and tried to dig it off its face resulting in self mutilation. Good news is that he is happy as a pickle at the moment and doing well in his training.

The fracture was handled by sedating and crating the dog and it was given a course of steroids. That's about all I know. The dog healed well with no long term issues and was able to lead a healthy life.

Why would the owner be prosecuted? He was following the instructions of a person that he believed to be an expert. I believe the impact would have been caused by the sudden change of direction and the inertia used.

Believe me, the gentleman was deeply saddened by what happened to his dog and at the same time, very angry, dissapointed and humiliated. He suffered alongside the dog as he adores him and never wished this. It also cost him a lot of money in vet fees as well