Training Discussion - Head Halters

[Herr Rottweiler]

Herr Rottweiler

You haven't developed an effective technique yet. When you do, you're dog will know that pulling is no longer an option

Herein lies the problem....what is an effective technique?. Why is it no one will explain?

An Ah Ah and a pop on the leash is quite effective with some dogs. It worked for all but one of mine.

Hi Anne,

It's not that I don't want to explain it, it's just that I believe it would be a huge waste of time trying to. It's like asking a baseball coach to explain how to hit a home run. I'm sure he'd say, "meet me in a field and i'll show you".

Some things are best demonstrated. A friend told me that a good demonstartion speaks a thousand words. I would say that's being modest. I would say, more like a million.

I showed a lady how to properly correct her dog the other day and she said that nobody every showed her how to do it, they just described it to her which is why she never learned it in the beginning.

[Herr Rottweiler]

BTW if you want to see a good trainer who does train with a Halti I can put you in touch with one. This trainer will train with whatever equipment he feels will do the job and that the owner is comfortable with. He is an excellent trainer.

Well that is the essence of an excellent trainer! One that will use all the tools in the bag and get's the job done.

PM me his name if you don't mind

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Herr Rottweiler]

Here's the deal Anne. I have been involved with online forums way before most australians had any idea of what the internet was. So much so that I used to speak to Americans because there wasn't any forums in Australia.

My point is that I have been going over this same topic for over a decade and a half now and most times when I write it people will say, "I tried your technique but it didn't work".

Pretty much the same as when I tried to learn Kung fu from a book and it was completely different when I actually went to a school and was shown. Or the time I made a recipe from a book and it looked nothing like the picture from the book!

Eventually I got tired of trying to explain the technique and being insulted by nuffies, so I offered to meet a group at a park to show them a few techniques.

"wow!" People exclaimed as they learned to do it themselves!

It's not magic! It's not a con to make people join my school but it certainly is about how you hold your lead, how you place your feat, the technique you use to correct and praise the dog and timing.

Majority of people pick it up real quick but then again, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

As for the guys name. Keep it.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Herr Rottweiler

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Cazza]

So what do you all think would be a good method for me to teach my dog how to walk on a loose lead, given he is already 10 months old and quite strong.  Giving the lead a yank and an 'ah ah' when he walks too fast isn't working for me - I'm just getting a sore arm!

This is not an insult to you, it's merely a point.

You haven't developed an effective technique yet. When you do, you're dog will know that pulling is no longer an option

Well yeah, I kind of worked that out...

Being a first-time dog owner & being unable to get into obedience classes until next year I'd appreciate some tips in how to get a better technique.

[Erny]

As you wish and since you said it so nicely K9 Force seems to be an exception here in that he is quite willing to share and instruct many of us with training problems. Perhaps that comes from his confidence in his technique.  He was very helpful to me in our discussions.

Anne - I've been on DOL for about one year and if you take the time to read through many threads over the last year or so you'll identify that many trainers have contributed and assisted people who have sought help in respect to varying matters, ranging from behaviour through to training.

They have done so willingly and with the pure desire to assist where they can, albeit without obligation to do so.

It remains true that many identify the explanation of training techniques a simple matter, when, in reality, it is not, merely due to the fact, as other DOLers have posted here, that what information is posted is often only what the dog owner sees ... and that's not always (and is often not) the whole picture.

This thread, as I understood it, was to attract comments and thoughts, for the main part, on Headcollars. Some people (trainers inclusive) have responded by mentioning that, in their experience, they can achieve a better result faster without the use of headcollars. I don't believe it was a thread that then demanded each poster justify their thoughts by giving a full on training post.

When you posted to my response, I admit I felt goaded by you .... as if I was somehow obliged to enter into a full blown training lesson on "walking on loose lead". At the time, I was affronted by your attitude, but in any case was too weary to give it the time and energy it would take to meet what seemed to be your demands. Perhaps, as often occurs on DOL, the "tone" of your posts have been misconstrued, but they have come across to me as a challenge, rather than a sincere request for advice of the methods that work for us. Not that we can't meet challenges, but sometimes our energies are required elsewhere.

Trainers do what they can to help, but most, if not all of us, have mentioned at some time or other that training over the internet is not the way to go, and is difficult and open to misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Sometimes I think to myself "I really need to see the dog" ..... observation tells a trainer alot about the relationship between dog and handler; temperament etc. etc., to be able to then best deliver advice as to the manner in which you might best achieve your goal.

Your "invitation" to tell you how we train has not, IMO, been the most attractive, as I get the feeling that if you don't agree, it will only serve for you (and perhaps others here) to flame us for it. We have our respective methods. They work for us and the dogs we work with .... we don't have to justify it nor spend the time doing so. That you now post protest that we are not donating our services to you evidences, IMO, your belief that you are entitled to the same, rather than appreciating it when we do have the time to deliver to your needs.

Perhaps if your posts were more inquisitive than provocative and demanding, attempt to give you some helpful information would be more forthcoming.

You've mentioned that your dog walks nicely for you and that you have achieved control with the methods you use. That's great, and I'm glad it's worked for you. But if you seek to change the methods and/or tools you use, it's mosttimes best and easier for all concerned if you have a lesson or two in person.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Erny,

Well said!

Anne, if this trainer of yours is as good as you say, then I'm sure you have some extremely well behaved dogs. ;)

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Herr Rottweiler]

As for the guys name. Keep it.

As you wish and since you said it so nicely ;) .

If you are familiar with the Rottweiler forum in America you will probably know who this trainer is. He is highly respected by the knowledgable people on that forum and has written many training articles for them.

K9 Force seems to be an exception here in that he is quite willing to share and instruct many of us with training problems. Perhaps that comes from his confidence in his technique. He was very helpful to me in our discussions.

Hi Anne,

Sounds to me like you're talking about the amazing Adam Katz

Anne, I tip my hat to Steve from K9 because I feel that he gives 100% but even I feel that Steve would question why would he waste time again and again trying to explain something that will be lost in translation.

Erny, well said. Don't think I could have said it better

[Kelpie-i]

Sounds to me like you're talking about the amazing Adam Katz 

HR, He wouldn't give his trade secrets out over the net!!!

Anne, I tip my hat to Steve from K9 because I feel that he gives 100% but even I feel that Steve would question why would he waste time again and again trying to explain something that will be lost in translation.

Totally agree, sometimes I think he gives too much away, but that's just my opinion. ;)

[Steve K9Pro]

Anne:

Kelpie: you mentioned that you are reluctant to give your solution to the pulling problem due to people having dogs with varied behaviour problems and are not telling the full story. The full story is that the damn dog pulls.

We are not talking about varied and/or severe behaviour problems in this thread, just pulling. That's the behaviour we are trying to rectify, not jumping on guests or mouthing the kids or being aggressive to other dogs in the street, just pulling.

The experts keep telling us how easy/simple it is to fix but they won't tell us how to fix it. I am beginning to believe it's not quite so easy at all. It wasn't for me.

I am quite sure K9 knows exactly how it's done, and quickly. Testimony tells us so.

K9: Its rarely ever the full story, does the dog pull to get away from the owner? does it pull to attack another dog? does it pull because your other half is up the street ahead, does it pull when in flight from another dog? Is it domainant & will bite the handler after a correction?

Each one of these & many more are common, but require different treatment.

When a dog has a solid temp, the method I use I guarantee to have the dog walking next to me in under 15 minutes on a loose leash , I allow 15 minutes as I also explain every step I do, in reality, 3 - 7 minutes.

I proved this over & over again at workshops & my last info nite, download the video & see, lol. But whilst I am running this method, I am constantly using my descretion based on the dogs attitide in training, more or less praise, have a break, less or more correction, more guidance less guidance. When I hand the dog back to the person, they have seen an actual demo, the dog is imprinted with the command, I have assesed the dog & the handler.

When you hand out steps people walk at different rates.

Many people would love a recipe to dog training, there isnt one. I can tell / show /demonstrate what I do but its in relation to the dog before & throughout the training.

If you look at the time I & other traners here put into threads, you will see this simply is no marketting excercise lol, when I give advice its general or non risk related.

You well know that if I gave out advice on how to do this & there was even one backfire, my fans on the other lists would be rejoycing & blowing it out of proporation, this would be way down the priority list to me, way behind the priority of the dog at least.

You have mentioned that I gave you some advice on a prong a while ago & it was helpful, thanks for the acknowledgement, but before I gave you that info, I assesed that you had enough common sense to listen & you were consulting a local trainer as well, under those circumstances, the advice was given, at no cost & I was happy to do so.

But when you dont have those assurances, & something goes wrong, the trainer suffers a little, the handler suffers a little & the dog suffers a lot.

SR:

I find it interesting that we are in page 4 already, and the trainers who believe they don't need headcollars, and can teach dogs to stop pulling with a choker chain, still haven't said how they do it.

K9: I would have thought that would have been disrespectful, this is a thread about halters, not other devices & methods.

SR:

I've also personally trained a large number of dogs to not pull on the lead...but the question is Haven, can the owners? When you hand the dog back to the owners, what are the results? After all, you're training the handlers, not the dogs.

K9: this is true, but I think that you will see from the small amount of clients that I have here, probably 200 ish now, that people leave my grounds & have the results, SAS posted that the dog was highly compliant that afternoon... Not weeks months years later...

I have no issues giving advice here or elsewhere, is that to my benefit? Probably, means not everyone I come in contact with will make a booking, keeps my waiting list realistic, 2 - 3 months is standard. I often get emails from clienst whom I have worked with where some problem has developed, as I know how they train, I taught them, as I know their dog, I assessed it & as they know what I mean when I say xyz, I correct them & say, you dont need to come see me, save your money, do this, that & the other.

99% of the time, this is effective, 1% its not, but I at least havent figured out how to give 99% success with just an internet consult, every time, but working on it! lol.

[cavNrott]

Herr Rottweiler.

I feel that Steve would question why would he waste time again and again trying to explain something that will be lost in translation

I can't figure out why you seem to feel everyone is an idiot and is unable to understand a simple tip given regarding training. Some of us are well educated and quite intelligent and no it's not Adam Katz.

Kelpie

HR,  He wouldn't give his trade secrets out over the net!!!

Kelpie

Totally agree, sometimes I think he gives too much away, but that's just my opinion

Well those last couple of comments explains it to me.

Fortunately most trainers are happy to help owners have well behaved dogs...geez some of them even assist on the internet for no payment. Those trainers are more concerned about the owner being dragged around than keeping a closed shop.

This thread has made me feel lucky I eventually found the trainer we have. I have put people onto him and he has been willing to help them out over the phone. Sometimes it doesn't even involve a paid training session. I know this because the people I referred on have come back and told me.

[Erny]

Anne - you've already mentioned that you have your social walking techniques under control and are achieving. I'm not sure why you're the one who is seeking trainers to "give tips".

To give assistance, a person who is still having problems would need to post, giving a completely FULL description of everything he/she is doing, has done, how they're doing, what they're doing when it's happening, what they're doing when it's not. MAYBE (emphasise on the word, not yelling) then, we can give a tip or two for them to try. And perhaps in a different thread, as I don't think this was the original topic subject.

I'm not sure what "tips" you want, seeing as you don't seem to have any issues.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

Totally agree, sometimes I think he gives too much away, but that's just my opinion.

K9: yep its probably bad business, lol.. but in reality I love seeing someone get success, any success with a dog, specially when they thought that they couldnt.

I ran an e collar seminar here couple of years ago, a trainer came down from Qld, sorry, an excellent trainer from Qld came down, Jane Harper.

She came with a friend /colleage of mine Dr Jackie Perkins, whom I believe would be one of the leading Vet Behaviourists in thiws country, they came to learn e collar training.

We used a demo dog Leonard, & to cut a long story short Jane was handling Leonard & after he had improved so much in so little time, I still remember both of us bouncing up the paddock after seein him work, Jane has been training lone as I have, maybe longer, if you love this work, you never stop getting the buzz..

I know trainers who curse me for helping people free, when they need the business.

[sidoney]

I think much of what Anne says has been fair enough. I've read people on this thread saying that they have used a halter and why and how and what they get out of it. We've had people come on the thread and say that they are no good and that they can train without one and have better results but have offered little or no evidence other than "because I say so". Or making a blanket "they are bad" statement based on isolated examples. There have been implications in some posts that people only use them if they have some kind of incompetence. Making categorical and inflexible statements and making these kinds of judgments don't help in allowing an open and informative discussion.

As far as I am concerned they are a tool and they can be used well or badly, as can other tools. Some tools suit some better than others - handlers and/or dogs. If some people can use them safely and effectively, why should the implication be made that it is only used because there is some lack or deficiency?

Edited November 8, 2005 by sidoney

[Erny]

..... if you love this work, you never stop getting the buzz..

I know trainers who curse me for helping people free, when they need the business.

For the most part, I don't think we have an issue, generally, in this ..... My pay is often that "buzz" from seeing dog/handler achievement - you and I touched on that subject not long ago, K9 ;) . If "buzz"s were money - THEN I'd be rich - I count myself fortunate for those experiences.

Most of us (trainers) have on many occasions worked with people (in person) and not charged, for the love of dogs. I have more difficulty in the concept of "net" training.

There appears, in this thread, to be an insistant expectation from some that it's easy for us to tell them what to do over the net, and just as easy for them to apply our written suggestions correctly. If it were all that easy, I don't think they'd be having the difficult problems they express in the first place. And we'd only ever be required to write it once.

The training forum in DOL would then become very quiet and book sales would diminish alarmingly! And dog training wouldn't be half as interesting .......

[Kelpie-i]

Sidoney

I think what Anne was after was some dog training tips. Unfortunately I don't think this thread is about that. It was merely a discussion on head halters and each person's opinion on them.

I think I speak for some others when I say that we don't need to prove ourselves and our experiences, we merely made statements on our beliefs, experiences and personal opinions on the tool. It was never intended as a training tip thread.

As far as I am concerned they are a tool and they can be used well or badly, as can other tools. Some tools suit some better than others - handlers and/or dogs. If some people can use them safely and effectively, why should the implication be made that it is only used because there is some lack or deficiency

I agree, however what we are witnessing here is a clash of ideas and beliefs between dog trainers and general dog owners.

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

We've had people come on the thread and say that they are no good

K9: I dont think that they are no good, I think they serve ok as a maintenance tool but come with risks...

S:

There have been implications in some posts that people only use them if they have some kind of incompetence.

K9: I will suggest this, I think if the only way a trainer can get results, this is a pro trainer mind you, they are in competant, because they are relying on the exaggerated leverage to get the dog to comply, they have missed the boat when it comes to pack drive & leadership.

People have suggested that if I have to use a prong or e collar then I am incompetant.

I dont have to, but the owners may have to, are they incompetant? as owners no, as trainers maybe? But thats ok isnt it?

I do believe that I could get the same results I get with a flat collar on many dogs, but no way could the owners, & its about giving them control, not me.

My overall concern is, buy one, fit is as per instructions, go for a walk, you may come home with a dog with an injured neck, no other tool can do that.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Anne,

I can't quite work you out? Rotty person too!

I believe I give quite a bit of my time trying help and answer questions for members on DOL. I just don't see any value in wasting my time and other people's when I have experienced a trend like this many, many times before.

I don't assume that people on this list are idiots either.