Training Discussion - Head Halters

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Staranais]

The method: We heeled first, then loose lead walking. Ah Ah as a correction if the dog put any tension at all on the lead. If the dog tried to pull, a quick pop UPWARDS (and Ah Ah) on the lead - never pulling her head sideways.....and watch my dog in order to give a correction before she hit the end of the lead. She never did hit the end of it. Not once. I was taught how to properly position my hands holding the lead. Not the way they taught at the ob. club.

Anne, not trying to start an argument, but wouldn't this method have worked equally well with a prong or check chain?

Edited November 6, 2005 by Amhailte

[kelpiecuddles]

I would like to share my experience here. I have two dogs and while I can see your point of view regarding the owner 'allowing' the dog to pull I fail to believe that this is the case all the time. I have trained both my dogs at home and while I now take Sascha to obedience as we wish to trial in the future she was already heeling before we got there so we will assume for the sake of argument that both dogs have been trained to the same level (if that makes sense).

I got both dogs at the age of approximately 10 weeks, both dogs were trained on a flat collar to start with and while Sascha has never needed anything more forceful than this we eventually despite our best efforts had to put Beau on a choker (don't worry I do know how to fit one) and then when he continued to pull we eventually decided to try a halter. Beau now wears a mini horse foal halter as it is much better made (wider straps and metal buckles rather than clips) and he doesn't mind wearing it at all. We used the halter not as a quick fix but as a training tool. He was taught to heel while wearing it and now only wears it if we are going somewhere high distraction as he can get a bit overexcited

I just feel it is important that people realise that not all dogs are the same and some are a bit less..um...intelligent.. than others Beau is now well trained and even tried agility fr some fun a few weeks ago and did really well even with all the distractions around. FYI - we can't train Beau with food as he gets so intent on the food that he won't listen to what you say

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Guest Tess32]

Anne - possibly because trainers don't want to give out advice over the net, have a handler do it incorrectly and then blame the method and trainer.

Possibly because they would want to know the dog in question before they give out training advice....

Or possibly because they want people to come to their club

Nat

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Staranais]

Training advice, as far as I can fathom, would not be a situation where a dog would be harmed....

I think it depends on the situation. I would be especially uncomfortable offering advice about any serious behavioural problem over the internet, but any information has the potential to be misused.

It's hard to "diagnose" a dog properly over the internet. There's the chance that the person you are talking to might misreport the behavioural "symptoms", or might misinterpret what you tell them to do. You also have no idea of the dog owners previous training experience, relationship with the dog, ability to read dog behaviour, or level of co-ordination. Giving someone the incorrect advice, or having them apply any advice incorrectly or in an overly heavy-handed way, could mess up a dog.

Having said that, though, I don't see why people couldn't share ideas on curing dogs that are determined pullers. Perhaps if another thread was started, we could all do that?

[poodlefan]

Since the OP requested facts and fallacies, I'll add my views.

The halti is frequently marketed as a more gentle method of restraining a dog that is based on the way a horse halter works.

Halti's are nothing like horse halters. When you fit a horse's halter, you should be able to put your hand between any part of the halter and the horse's head. A halti is fitted tightly.

Horses are large animals and generally the pressure on their halters is downwards and on the poll (top of head) and bony part of the nose. A halti applies pressure sideways (and on a small dog upwards) and directly on the very sensitive part of the dog's face below the eyes.

Despite being championed by many positive trainers, haltis are the ONLY correction tool that are CONSTANTLY AVERSIVE whether the dog is pulling or not. I find nothing "positive" in their use.

Dogs can and do learn to pull on them.

They have their place (as to most dog training aids) but their place is not in the hands of an inexperienced handler or ever on a small dog IMHO.

The new versions that apply pressure downwards and onto a flat collar are meant to operate like horse martingales. Once again, that assertion is false. They are far more restrictive than a martingale and have the potential to do serious damage in the wrong hands.

[Cheyenne_Fury]

I have been reading this thread with interest, as I have in the passed used the gentle leader, and had been lead to believe that they were "gentle". I have two dogs, both of which I adopted from an RSPCA shelter. My dalmatian i adopted between the age of 6-8 months and my beagle/basset cross between the age of 8-9 years. (they were adopted at different times) Both of the dogs that I adopted had had little or no training when i got them. With my Dalmatian (I adopted him first) I did preliminary training with him, getting him to sit, drop etc. and this went well. I admit that I have not had vast experience training dogs by any means, though have owned a few dogs over the years with my family, though my current dogs are the first dogs I have owned since leaving home. Our other dogs we had from puppies and while they never went to obedience school as my mum didn't drive and my dad worked 6 days a week we "trained" them at home and never had any problems.

Jake (Dalmatian) was taken to obedience school at around 12-14 months and we started out training on a flat collar. I was having trouble controlling him with all the other dogs around and one of the instructors suggested that I try a gentle leader. I went to the RSPCA shop where the gentle leader was fitted and I was instructed on how to use the halter and for us it worked fine, though i can say that at first Jake was not too fond of it, but learned that when i put the halter on him we were going out and about adn so began to look forward to putting it on. We used the halter while we attended obedience and continued using the halter for a few months after we stopped attending obedience school (as I did not agree with one of the instructors who insisted on training methods that I didn't agree with she "picked" on people and I didn't think this was effective in encouraging people to train their dogs and make it enjoyable). I can know walk Jake on a loose lead for the most part and only really put the halter on if we are going somewhere new or different and there will be a lot of dogs/distractions.

Murray on the other hand is completely different. I have tried a few different methods not to get him to pull without seeming success, but am also not really wanting to use the gentle leader on him as he positively hates it and as he has a different shaped head to Jake I find that although it "fits" him, it sits too close to his eyes for my liking. I know that the pulling is due to my ineffective training of Murray, but also he could have been doing this his whole life and it is harder to correct a dog that has been pulling for who knows how long, than a puppy or dog that has been pulling for a relatively short time. I have made the decision to look into taking Murray to ADT at Berwick after he has had his vaccination booster later this month, but for some people who can't afford to attend regular training or have other commitments and can not always arrange the spare time to attend training regularly, there has to be another answer doesn't there? I undestand that obedience and/or private lessons is preferable, but does anyone have any suggestions that people can try without "harming" their dogs in order to make taking their dogs for a walk more enjoyable for both dog and owner?

Just my opinion...

Anne

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Its no secret I dont like head halters, any of them, the reasons are many.

There is a moderate risk that the dog can injur its neck, many people have reported this. Others are unaware of any neck injuries I understand that, but I have wintessed it.

The dogs tongue can be bitten when the leash is pulled, no other training tool casues this.

Pressure applied to the nerves in the face of the dog cause the dog to show avoidance, often panick. The dog ends up complying as the drive has been removed.

The dog knows when it is wearing it & when it is not, so this adds a difficlut training problem to over come when trying to go offleash.

It promotes poor leash handling techniques as users often have to keep tention on the leash which applies discomfort/pain to the dogs neck muscles, thus reducing drive & the pulling.

The aboe are only some TRAINING problems, below I have some behaviour problems I have seen.

fear aggression evelvated as the dog feels even more less able to flight when head is controlled.

Old rule in training is that "dog only learns when he offers the behaviour", making your dog look at you with a halter isnt the dog deciding to do it.

Adding pain/discomfort to a dog that is less than confident destroys the bond when the dog has no control over it.

Many Dogs plainly hate them, this removes the enjoyment of the walk which can add to behaviour problems.

Yes I will accept that many people feel happy with the results provded by them, I have never seen dog that I could train faster & keep the dog more positive with a collar over a harness.

Edited November 7, 2005 by K9 Force

[sidoney]

It promotes poor leash handling techniques as users often have to keep tention on the leash which applies discomfort/pain to the dogs neck muscles, thus reducing drive & the pulling.

As you suggest, this would be an incorrect use of the tool. I think any dog can pull into anything if it's allowed to/becomes accustomed to it. But people buy these or harnesses or whatever and expect the tool to do the job and not the person.

It's not the tool that trains the dog, it's the handler. I've used this tool and others. I still use this one at times. As Anne has pointed out, any tool needs to be have its proper use learned.

Edited November 7, 2005 by sidoney

[Steve K9Pro]

S":

As you suggest, this would be an incorrect use of the tool. I think any dog can pull into anything if it's allowed to/becomes accustomed to it. But people buy these or harnesses or whatever and expect the tool to do the job and not the person.

K9: although everyone claims to have a method that differs from leverage over the neck muscles, the only two ways I have seen these used are: using the leash to apply pressure on the neck muscles, or delivering a check chain style correction.

If that isnt being done, there would be no advantage over any other style collar.

[Kelpie-i]

Ann, I would say that the reason one of your dogs continued to pull and the others didn't was probably b/c that particular dog was more determined and head strong than the others or perhaps your training method did not suit that dog and clearly wasn't working. If you have other justifiable reasons why your dog continued to pull, I'd lke to hear them.

Dogs DO pull because the owners LET them and this is a fact. I see many little puppies walking their owners every week which, if not rectified at any early age, can turn out to be 40kg worth of pull once the dog grows up in some cases.

As I previously stated, the halter worked for you as it certainly does others, but it is not my preferred tool and is certainly not 100% safe.

Tess32

Anne - possibly because trainers don't want to give out advice over the net, have a handler do it incorrectly and then blame the method and trainer.

Possibly because they would want to know the dog in question before they give out training advice....

Quite correct. Whilst advice over the net for simple things like puppy housetraining etc is readily given, trainers are somewhat reluctant provide advice/techniques over the net for more serious problems for obvious reasons.

Anne

Training advice, as far as I can fathom, would not be a situation where a dog would be harmed....if it doesn't work then I would come back here and say so and ask for further advice and see if I could find out where I was going wrong.

I would have to disagree with your statement Some advice can actually be harmful to your dog especially if the advice given was incorrect for that problem.

People who post on forums for advice never give you the full story of the problem they only tell you the problem. Ie. my dog jumps on people continuously - how do I make it stop? What they fail to say is that they have 3 children all under the age of 10 who squeel, flap their arms and run whenever the dog jumps, further, they fail to tell you that their guests also pat, praise and talk to the dog whilst it is jumping whenever they come to visit.

So which part of this problem scenario truly needs attention, the dog or the owners? You can see now how incorrect advice ie. give the dog a correction, throw a chain etc is not getting to the cause but rather the symptom of the behaviour. This is why most trainers will not provide advice over the net.

[Kelpie-i]

K9, there is another method called the "Thunder Bolt" which doesn't require a check, martingale, prong etc. It works with just a flat collar. Wonderful technique, does not hurt or harm the dog in any way and one that I use on stubborn dogs.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[sidoney]

If that isnt being done, there would be no advantage over any other style collar.

I think the advantage I have found with my foster is that she has learned to lean into collars until she's choking herself. The halter is a different kind of pressure and she's not learned to lean into it. She has tried to lean into it but I'm not letting her and she is responding more quickly and with less pressure than with a collar - which suits me as my joints are not so good as they used to be . I could teach her to not lean into a collar but I think it would take more time and more physical effort.

I imagine I would get a similar result (vis not leaning into it) with a prong but I don't own a prong and have not yet used one.

there is another method called the "Thunder Bolt"

Oh, tell us more about this!

Edited November 7, 2005 by sidoney

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I think I know what your talking about but know it by a different name, can you explain?

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

She has tried to lean into it but I'm not letting her

K9: how are you stopping her?

[sidoney]

K9: how are you stopping her?

Well I've not had much experience with pulling dogs - mine don't learn to pull, although the Kelpie has been more challenging than the Vizslas. And she pulled horrendously when I arrived at her best friend's place last Friday and she was yelping with excitement. I can see we have some way to go! I am sorry I was unable to attend your evening seminar (son's B'day). Anyway.

I am stopping her by not having pressure on it except when I am repositioning her where I want her to be. So any pressure I put on is brief. I've experimented with a tug back to position and with taps back to position and I think taps are working better. It's as you say, not using so differently to a collar, but as she has learned to ignore the collar and not the halter, it's much easier on me as I can use much less pressure. And I praise her and allow forward motion when she is where I want her to be.

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

I am stopping her by not having pressure on it except when I am repositioning her where I want her to be. So any pressure I put on is brief. I've experimented with a tug back to position and with taps back to position and I think taps are working better. It's as you say, not using so differently to a collar, but as she has learned to ignore the collar and not the halter, it's much easier on me as I can use much less pressure. And I praise her and allow forward motion when she is where I want her to be.

K9: ok, what I meant before is, what happens is that when you tap, tug or pull back, the location of the leash ring is much further forward than a neck collar, this gives you a leverage advantage over the dog & its easier to pull the dog back beacause 1, the pressure on the dogs facial nerves is painful thus reducing drive, 2. the neck muscles on the left side of the dog are being stretched, also paiful, as your on the dogs right, this increased aversive is why they seem to show results, with less effort. (imo)

[sidoney]

Yes, I would agree with that. Less pressure on the handler's part for more pressure on the dog. Why handlers of any high pressure tool need to be sensitive to the dog. Similar to different kinds of bits on horses - some give more pressure/pain to the horse for less pressure from the rider. And hence need to be used with sensitivity.

Have found that quite quickly this dog is responding to very light pressure on the halter as she learns what I want. So the high pressure situation is not sustained but available if needed.

Have found "reducing drive" to be useful at times as she's obviously chased quite a few birds in the past. But yesterday was able to walk past some with just pricked ears and she kept position - big improvement.

(BTW I have dog on left OR right as I do agility. )

Edited November 7, 2005 by sidoney