Prey Drive Control & Focus..

[mutchumbo]

This has been a very interesting thread and i'm learning a lot. I have some knowledge on this topic, far from an expert and am always willing to listen to new things/advice.

Ben is progressing very well - as expected. His play drive and attention span is fast increasing which is great. I had grave concerns as mentioned earlier regarding his retrieve but that seems to be coming along well also. I've uploaded a short video of him. Note: he's still getting used to this new article. It's a rubber spikey ring and he hasn't quite got a handle on it yet (funny to watch him though) Also note, i've given no verbal command / encouragement.

NB: Apologies for the bad quality, I used a still camera's video function - it's also harder trying to throw and follow his movements. Eh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfqz_36RTeQ

[miccar96]

Hi

I thought I would bump this discussion up to the first page .

We(my husband and I) are doing the distance course package "training in drive " that k9force is running. Is anyone else also using this method to train their dog?

It would be interesting to hear what you think about it......

We are having a lot of fun ,but it is much harder than we thought, Physically harder. We didn't think we were that unfit. especially my husband who thinks he is half an athlet

[BrunoBella]

Drive trianing is hard work. We used to have a topic about all the cuts and bruises people got when starting as you have to rev the dog up. You will soon be covered in bruises and scratches as well as being exhausted.

Good luck

[BrunoBella]

Here's a funny link on Drive training....

Ouch

[Kavik]

I just got this toy that Kaos LOVES! A furry sqeaky toy connected to a rope and pole so I can make it move and jump around fast. Maybe this will be the one to hold his attention out of the yard!

[miccar96]

Here's a funny link on Drive training....

Ouch

Ha ha ha :D :D

very funny ! Yes I have had the odd tooth mark and bruise too.

After the first two days of the training, the two that you do nothing to build frustation, my husband asked our GSD.....

- Shall we go outside?

And ,did he go crazy!!! He ran around the flat at breakneck speed, jumped up and down on couches twirling around like an idiot... So , yes I think he

was a bit excited.

[sidoney]

I just got this toy that Kaos LOVES! A furry sqeaky toy connected to a rope and pole so I can make it move and jump around fast. Maybe this will be the one to hold his attention out of the yard!

Sounds a bit like the toy that I introduced to my puppies today, this one. (They were also introduced to this one.)

[Kavik]

Yep exactly like the first one! Unfortunately he is going to kill it very quicky! Let me know how the other one with handles holds up - might be worth getting if it will stand up to wear better.

[sidoney]

Not with the rabbit skin it won't, not with a hard tugger anyway. Although Xia would love to have a go again ... I used it when building her desire to tug. I have one of these (somewhere) also, more sturdy.

[Kavik]

That looks good too! I got some money for xmas so will get some stuff.

The one on a pole I got was smaller and the string broke already. I have a bigger one that looks more sturdy.

[sidoney]

I got mine from the USA. I will try to remember to bring it to your place.

[kyndaara]

Hi:

I'm new to the forum. I live with three breeds: German Shepherd Dog, Bouvier des Flandres and Pembroke Welsh Corgis. Until recently, we primarily competed in herding trials. However, I recently joined a Schutzhund training group with the goal of doing competition obedience with my corgi and possibly schutzhund with the bouv [yes she is sound and well balanced]. I actually started my corgi pup with the group when he was six months old. The training is similar to K9's drive based training. My corgi pup is doing really well and he loves the bite work. Our highlight last week was after springing a couple of feet off the ground for the tug, he first brought it to me and then circled back to re-engage the helper. He literally wakes up every morning with "what can I do for you," and he is an example of a dog well on his way as seeing me as the ultimate; i.e. drive satisfaction which I have been working on. There is another USA trainer [Kevin Behan, "The Natural Dog Trainer"] that is also consistent with K9's training program. I've used this with my 3 year old bouv to try to un-inhibit her drive. She was VERY high prey drive as a puppy and young dog. However, because of my stock work, I squelched it with lots of control training which is pretty good within that 12 foot circle <vbg>. About 6 months ago, I decided to put her herding training on hold to see if I could do drive based training because I think its more reliable. Traditional training really strives to decrease drive instead of establishing control of it when its at its higher levels. It took a lot to experiementing with different toys and different set ups to get her to play tug with me. We are not at the point of her seeing it as a reward. I can remember attempting to tie her out but she basically went into avoidance. She is starting to see the tug toy as a prey item. However, she isn't obsessed with it like the schutzhund dogs who have been raised with this method and haven't experienced live prey. We are definitely increasing drive and increasing her attraction to me. As she becomes less inhibited, its almost like she is returning to what she was like as a puppy. She has pretty good food drive and will offer behaviors for reward with good drive. She's very much a work in progress. I'm thinking pretty soon she might be ready to try the tie out and K9's drive development program. I recently had a good session running side to side and engaging a good game of tug. I realize she had three years of the control stuff and I might have permanently destroyed her genetic potential but I'm patient.

I'm curious about the TOT program. My thoughts are that with this particular dog already trained in pack/alpha [albeit not as much a free choice scenario as laid out in the TOT program], should I raise her drive levels first with the tug before moving to pack training? From the time she was a puppy, I did an obedience routine which changed nightly before I would release her to eat. Her drive is definitely high with her reaching frustration when its not going her way. When I started 6 months ago, I could only get drive around feeding time in one part of the house. We are now getting it in different parts of the house, outside and even away from home. However, its not consistent yet.

Kyndaara

[dogdude]

From the time she was a puppy, I did an obedience routine which changed nightly before I would release her to eat. Her drive is definitely high with her reaching frustration when its not going her way. When I started 6 months ago, I could only get drive around feeding time in one part of the house. We are now getting it in different parts of the house, outside and even away from home. However, its not consistent yet.

Kyndaara

Hi Kyndaara

I was having(and to some extent, still having) problems with triggering high drive with food.

Like you, I am getting super drive at night time, (the time when I have always fed him) as opposed to a medium drive during the daytime.

I have now started to feed in the mornings, and there has been a definate improvement........but still at probably 60 percent of what his night time drive is.

I am thinking that the darkness may be a further trigger?

Another of my problems in the past was that I was not consistantly using a trigger command.

I think that these two mistakes were the reason for this problem......maybe K9 may want to chime in?

Edited February 13, 2008 by dogdude

[kyndaara]

From the time she was a puppy, I did an obedience routine which changed nightly before I would release her to eat. Her drive is definitely high with her reaching frustration when its not going her way. When I started 6 months ago, I could only get drive around feeding time in one part of the house. We are now getting it in different parts of the house, outside and even away from home. However, its not consistent yet.

Kyndaara

Hi Kyndaara

I was having(and to some extent, still having) problems with triggering high drive with food.

Like you, I am getting super drive at night time, (the time when I have always fed him) as opposed to a medium drive during the daytime.

I have now started to feed in the mornings, and there has been a definate improvement........but still at probably 60 percent of what his night time drive is.

I am thinking that the darkness may be a further trigger?

Another of my problems in the past was that I was not consistantly using a trigger command.

I think that these two mistakes were the reason for this problem......maybe K9 may want to chime in?

No, I didn't have a trigger command either. I feed at different times. Its not really set in stone. All she has to know is that I'm preparing the food. All the dogs have it down to the sounds I make in the kitchen. Then she starts to go nuts. It took awhile but once I started doing clicker based training, then I started getting the food drive and her offering me the behaviors. Is it bonkers drive like when I feed, no. Ultimately, I'd like to switch to the tug. She's just not really seeing the tug as ultimate prey and the rode to drive satisfaction yet. K9's program seems ideal but the tie out seems to presuppose her seeing the toy as a high value prey item. I don't think we are quite there yet. We are doing better though. This is a dog that initially looked at the tug toy as who cares. Now she is playing with it with me and even thinking in terms of possession. With the prey increasing though, I she's reverting to puppyhood and with that comes her prey obsession with our house cat and my call ducks. For instance last night she jumped two baby gates in pursuit of the cat. Once she got to him it was like a light bulb---uhhh, I'm not allowed to continue with this. I've been instilling in her since she was seven weeks old---thou shall not touch the cat. I usually keep her under a pretty tight rein but had gone downstairs. I try not to give her opportunity for self reward or prey satisfaction. I know part of it is that for most of her life I've said no prey drive so she's not comfy with me going into drive. I've had a lot of success with her on the porch and me standing on the ground so essentially she is elevated above me and wallah I get drive with her bringing initiating play with the tug. Maybe I need to stay in this scenario much longer until she is just nutso and then change environments. Cyber training is tough and unfortunately I can't travel so far for a clinc. Our training director just started telling us after the winter trials that we need a word to signal the start and a word to signal the end. So for sure I think the drive trigger command or cue I need to incorporate with both dogs. With my corgi, he just automatically goes into, what can I do for you and he's in snappy drive. But, he's been trained this way from the start and doesn't have any baggage.

Kyndaara

[Lablover]

From the time she was a puppy, I did an obedience routine which changed nightly before I would release her to eat. Her drive is definitely high with her reaching frustration when its not going her way. When I started 6 months ago, I could only get drive around feeding time in one part of the house. We are now getting it in different parts of the house, outside and even away from home. However, its not consistent yet.

Kyndaara

Hi Kyndaara

I was having(and to some extent, still having) problems with triggering high drive with food.

Like you, I am getting super drive at night time, (the time when I have always fed him) as opposed to a medium drive during the daytime.

I have now started to feed in the mornings, and there has been a definate improvement........but still at probably 60 percent of what his night time drive is.

I am thinking that the darkness may be a further trigger?

Another of my problems in the past was that I was not consistantly using a trigger command.

I think that these two mistakes were the reason for this problem......maybe K9 may want to chime in?

No, I didn't have a trigger command either. I feed at different times. Its not really set in stone. All she has to know is that I'm preparing the food. All the dogs have it down to the sounds I make in the kitchen. Then she starts to go nuts. It took awhile but once I started doing clicker based training, then I started getting the food drive and her offering me the behaviors. Is it bonkers drive like when I feed, no. Ultimately, I'd like to switch to the tug. She's just not really seeing the tug as ultimate prey and the rode to drive satisfaction yet. K9's program seems ideal but the tie out seems to presuppose her seeing the toy as a high value prey item. I don't think we are quite there yet. We are doing better though. This is a dog that initially looked at the tug toy as who cares. Now she is playing with it with me and even thinking in terms of possession. With the prey increasing though, I she's reverting to puppyhood and with that comes her prey obsession with our house cat and my call ducks. For instance last night she jumped two baby gates in pursuit of the cat. Once she got to him it was like a light bulb---uhhh, I'm not allowed to continue with this. I've been instilling in her since she was seven weeks old---thou shall not touch the cat. I usually keep her under a pretty tight rein but had gone downstairs. I try not to give her opportunity for self reward or prey satisfaction. I know part of it is that for most of her life I've said no prey drive so she's not comfy with me going into drive. I've had a lot of success with her on the porch and me standing on the ground so essentially she is elevated above me and wallah I get drive with her bringing initiating play with the tug. Maybe I need to stay in this scenario much longer until she is just nutso and then change environments. Cyber training is tough and unfortunately I can't travel so far for a clinc. Our training director just started telling us after the winter trials that we need a word to signal the start and a word to signal the end. So for sure I think the drive trigger command or cue I need to incorporate with both dogs. With my corgi, he just automatically goes into, what can I do for you and he's in snappy drive. But, he's been trained this way from the start and doesn't have any baggage.

Kyndaara

I agree. Cyber training is tough. Heck, ask 10 trainers and have 10 different opinions, but with thought 9 are saying the same thing.

Regarding words though..........dogs read body language (canine and ours) so well. Often we can forget this gift.

[Steve K9Pro]

K: I can remember attempting to tie her out but she basically went into avoidance. She is starting to see the tug toy as a prey item. However, she isn't obsessed with it like the schutzhund dogs who have been raised with this method and haven't experienced live prey. We are definitely increasing drive and increasing her attraction to me. As she becomes less inhibited, its almost like she is returning to what she was like as a puppy. She has pretty good food drive and will offer behaviors for reward with good drive. She's very much a work in progress. I'm thinking pretty soon she might be ready to try the tie out and K9's drive development program.

K9: The tie out isnt a neccessity, would rather people learn concepts from me rather than actual steps.. When we have dogs that have massive amounts of drive, the tie out is the saviour for your hands & it takes the advantahe of speed off the dog. So if you can only trigger drive without the tie out, so be it.

However, I have found that many people avoid the tie out & get to drive training, only to find out that the commands they have taught are non triggerable when the dog is leashed, as the leashes is a que to cool it..

So I would start this dog with a collar, then add 1 foot of rope & make sure I had the same drive, gradually extend the rope longer until its a leash I can at least hang onto in the work.

K: I'm curious about the TOT program. My thoughts are that with this particular dog already trained in pack/alpha [albeit not as much a free choice scenario as laid out in the TOT program], should I raise her drive levels first with the tug before moving to pack training?

K9: the two wont connect in the dogs head until later drive training, when the communications words will become helpful, so I would start right now...

In a way, the TOT is also about removing options for the dog, by the dog. It also improves the value of the tie out in step one...

Tie out = being fed...

K: Her drive is definitely high with her reaching frustration when its not going her way. When I started 6 months ago, I could only get drive around feeding time in one part of the house. We are now getting it in different parts of the house, outside and even away from home. However, its not consistent yet.

K9: there is a section in my program that deals with the dog needing to see a triggr very early n in training, which stops this problem occuring.

K: No, I didn't have a trigger command either. I feed at different times. Its not really set in stone. All she has to know is that I'm preparing the food.

K9: see, you did have a trigger command...

K: All the dogs have it down to the sounds I make in the kitchen.

K9: nope, this is something they are taught, pairing takes place when repetition of a step occurs..

K: Is it bonkers drive like when I feed, no. Ultimately, I'd like to switch to the tug.

K9: remember rule number one when it comes to rewards, "the reward must be something rewarding to the DOG"..

I prefer prey dogs too, but I will use food on food driven dogs..

[Steve K9Pro]

K: Now she is playing with it with me and even thinking in terms of possession. With the prey increasing though, I she's reverting to puppyhood and with that comes her prey obsession with our house cat and my call ducks. For instance last night she jumped two baby gates in pursuit of the cat.

K9: I am not sure that you have a good grasp of what needs to be done in drive training, my actual program (its not on DOL anywhere) has steps designed in to avoid the pitfalls such as possessiveness, chasing other prey, owning the triggers etc.

If your anywhere near us or a seminar, I suggest you come along & see a better outline of what I do, it can get a bit confusing..

K: I've had a lot of success with her on the porch and me standing on the ground so essentially she is elevated above me and wallah I get drive

K9: this may not be pure prey drive though, it seems she may be driven by a pack advantage?

K: with her bringing initiating play with the tug.

K9: Your dog should not be able to initiate the game...

[kyndaara]

I understand what you indicate in terms of your program and the differences. Part of the drive issue is permission to be in drive. For most of her life I've indicated that only low levels of drive are acceptable, given the livestock work and traditional herding training. From a pack standpoint, would she tug with the alpha? No. So a lot of my focus had been aimed at getting her to engage in the tug and BE in drive. So reducing my alphaness was one way. A companion to this was even seeing a toy as a prey item. So we went from zero interest to her seeing it as something of value; i.e. now she at least wants to possess it and win it. If she's intitiating the game--okay maybe that's a dominant feature---but now she's looking to me for satisfaction? I haven't worked her according to a Program. I was thinking that I may be reaching a point where I could work her within a program and what I read of yours seemed ideal. Anyway, we can't travel from the US to Australia so I won't be able to attend a clinic. I was wondering if you had a video series like what I've seen of Balabanov. Reading the thread was very helpful. A lot of what I've seen in Khira has occurred in other dogs. The dog that who became a expert ratter as his drive increased comes to mind and handlers talking about the bumps and bruises as the drive unleashes. As for YOUR program, no I don't know it. I've only been able to see references to it within this thread. Our schutzhund club uses a form of drive training. Your program seemed to presuppose an attaction to something and using it as a motivator where the dog does what the handler wants to obtain access to it and satisfy his drive. The benefit for the handler is that the dog isn't given to environmental distractions because he sees his handler as the ultimate attraction and vehicle for satisfying his almighty prey drive. Thanks for your time and thoughts.

Kyndaara

K: Now she is playing with it with me and even thinking in terms of possession. With the prey increasing though, I she's reverting to puppyhood and with that comes her prey obsession with our house cat and my call ducks. For instance last night she jumped two baby gates in pursuit of the cat.

K9: I am not sure that you have a good grasp of what needs to be done in drive training, my actual program (its not on DOL anywhere) has steps designed in to avoid the pitfalls such as possessiveness, chasing other prey, owning the triggers etc.

If your anywhere near us or a seminar, I suggest you come along & see a better outline of what I do, it can get a bit confusing..

K: I've had a lot of success with her on the porch and me standing on the ground so essentially she is elevated above me and wallah I get drive

K9: this may not be pure prey drive though, it seems she may be driven by a pack advantage?

K: with her bringing initiating play with the tug.

K9: Your dog should not be able to initiate the game...

[Kavik]

How is she initiating the game? Mine can't initiate it because I own the prey item - it only comes out during training.

And with the herding - I have started herding with my Kelpie, and I am encouraging his drive and working with it. I am trying to find a herding school that does not inhibit the dog overly much, but still gives the necessary control to work stock. Though different breeds of course work stock differently and I am far from an expert having only just started with my first herding dog! So far my Kelpie is the only one that I can work with in drive outside of the yard.

[kyndaara]

How is she initiating the game? Mine can't initiate it because I own the prey item - it only comes out during training.

And with the herding - I have started herding with my Kelpie, and I am encouraging his drive and working with it. I am trying to find a herding school that does not inhibit the dog overly much, but still gives the necessary control to work stock. Though different breeds of course work stock differently and I am far from an expert having only just started with my first herding dog! So far my Kelpie is the only one that I can work with in drive outside of the yard.

Okay, lets say I'm playing tug and after she has a good grip and really commits to her, I let it go. Since she has a long line attached, but I'm not holding it, she can't run off with it. So instead of her usual sort of prancing away with it, she sort or circles back with it in her mouth directly towards me, obviously wanting to tug again. She doesn't have access to the tug because, she only sees it when I take it out. Her possession episode was the night I let her in from outside. She was pretty hyped so I decided to take advantage of it and play with her. She was really into it and when I let it go, she ran off and jumped into her crate with it wagging her tail. I thought it was pretty funny and finally the spirit that I have been trying to get. With my corgi, he's already working for the tug game; i.e. I can ask for obedience behavior and he gets the tug as reward for the behavior and he sees it as a reward. Right now, I would say he's still probably more food driven. With both of them, I'd still say the food is the higher value item. Last night and tonight, thinking about what I have read in this thread, I put her food down and indicated that, no, she couldn't have it. She stared at it for a couple of seconds and then looked up at me with attention. After a couple of seconds, I marked it with yes and released her to eat. Soooo my intention was to bring the drive to the surface and THEN start to train with it. I've been doing pretty well with training with food drive. She loves to snow. We got eight inches and she was having a blast. I went out with the tug and wallah. I quit with her begging me for it. Besides I was soaked and TIRED. Incidentally, I tried the tie out probably over a year ago---long before I read this thread. I don't think that was clear in my initial post so its not a matter of having tried what I read and it didn't work. Its a total different scenario now which why I thought she might be READY to try the K9 program. So far I have read and taken notes thinking about what I've done and what I could do better. This is not ohhh I've tried the program as people have described in this thread and ohhhh, its not working for me. I was trying to give the condensed version of what I had done so far in trying to free up a drive I inhibited with other training and questioning whether to start with what seems like just the right training system for how I want to train and relate to my dogs.

I've seen a lot of benefit from what little I have done. I was out carting with a friend Khira is new to carting but after a couple of outings she has the turns and such. She alread has a stop and back up commands from herding. One of her prey triggers is little fluffy toy dogs. So here we are hitched to the cart and she wants to go ballistic over the dog. The first time it occurred, I resorted to pack with a "PLATZ!!!' She did it but she held a cold fixed stare on that dog until we were out of site. This is not what I wanted. I thought maybe I shoudln't subject her to the triggers until I had worked through what I understand as the drive training. But since my friend would have been major disappointed, I decided I would be better prepared the next outing. I spent the week really working with the food/marker training. So once again, we are hitched to the cart for our mile walk in the park and here comes the little fluffy dogs. I train a leave it command which means turn your attention away from what its on and give it to me [since she was 7 weeks old with the cat]. I gave the command and when she turned to me for I contact I marked it with a yes and treat. We sat there for awhile and pretty soon when she would spot a dog, she would turn toward me--yes, mark, treat. Eventually, we began walking and I came upon a lady with three toy dogs on flex leads. Normally, I would alter my path. I decided to see how she would deal with it. No fixed stare. I didn't tense up and growl "leave it." She actually walked right passed them with an attention heel. I marked it with yes and a treat.

Now for the herding. I've been training herding dogs for ten years. You are not going to have to deal with a Kelpie with what I deal with working with and trialing a GSD, Bouvier des Flandres or the corgi. The drive and intensity that they display leave most people scared to death for their livestock [unwarranted]. When I first started they were considered wolves by breed and only the BC was considered a proper herding dog. That has changed for the better but we still see the old biases. The corgi pup [year old] is now doing straight walk ups on cattle and holding pressure. He is very calm/relaxed--no anxiety or stress. This I attribute to the helper work in schutzhund and my training with the drive and marker system. He doesn' know stress. When I instinct tested his sister she was busy offering me behaviors out side of the pens where sheep were being worked. All attention was on me. When I took her into the pen and dropped the long line, she immediately went to work to gather the sheep and called off to me. She has TONS of drive. The only excercise I do with her is that before I will put the food bowl down, she has to sit STILL with good eye contact with me; then yes, release to eat. I 'd only done it a few times before I took her out on the sheep to instinct test. This is why I like this training so much and I plan to carry it over more to my herding training. Kelpies, like BCs are eye dogs. They are different in that they come into pressure much more readily but they have the same control tool [eye] and they will move off handler presssure. My breeds don't readily move away from pressure. They come into it to conquer it. A couple of trainers have had Australian Kelpie imports--wayyyyy cool. If you can find a way to go to a Greg Prince seminar--jump on it. One of the herding trainers our club has brought in for has had Australian Days at his farm. Each year they would bring in an Australian trainer.

Kyndaara