Prey Drive Control & Focus..

[J...]

My dog was a bit the same as a youngster, she'd retreive the toy once or twice and then lose interest.

I started off just using an ordinary toy, and my only condition was that she retreived it and brought it back, and enjoyed it!. Wasn't worried about the sit or how it looked. I stopped at one retreive and made it a high reward exercise for her.

As she enjoyed it more, I added a few more repetitions but always quit while she was still very interested.

It is only when she was about 12 months old that I started to shape a trial level retreive with a special toy, and when she got pretty good at that I introduced the dumbell, so she knows the difference between a fun retreive (with a ball) and a trial retreive (with the dumbell).

[mutchumbo]

Hmm... Interesting. Perhaps i'm being a little to critical on Ben. I'm used to GSD's that IMO have more a natural retrieve instinct then the Rotty.

When it comes to his bite rag however, that's a different story. He latches straight on an wont let go, a good deep bite, no mouthing. Maybe someone can tell me whether that's indicative of a Rottweilers natural characteristic.

[Staranais]

When it comes to his bite rag however, that's a different story. He latches straight on an wont let go, a good deep bite, no mouthing.

Why don't you use the chance to bite the bite rag as a reward for retrieving the dumbell then (or is that a no-no with bite rags? I don't know anything about them so this could be a completely useless answer!)

[Steve K9Pro]

Ben acts very much so like the dog depicted in the video.

K9: It would be better to see Ben, than a dog that you think acts like Ben... There could be the smallest difference & it would make the biggest difference to the advic, but if your dog was the dog in the video I would say..

1. Steps to training the retrieve have been missed. The dog should be taught to hold first. Then bring, then fetch.

2. The reward was given before the dog did anything...

3. The trainer is trying to add the finish before the steps above are solid so this is confusing the dog.

4. The dog from the finish point is given the fetch command, he goes out but does not return the item, the owner gives the dog a pat on the side & fetches it for the dog lol...

5. The dog has enough drive but is confused as to what is required to buy some food from the owner, see steps above...

6. The dog seems to be more interested in chasing the thrown item than the food, perhaps the wrong motivator is being used.

7. Finally, repeating the same excercise that the dog fails in is not helping...

Edited June 26, 2007 by K9 Force

[wheres my rock]

aquestion does playing tug upset the mouth of a working gundog i mean make them ahrder mouths or is that just genetics

[Lablover]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-EVKtvxeBI

I'm speechless.

[Kavik]

OK that is somewhat worse than Diesel's retrieve but if I don't work on it, it does look rather similar :D Must be cringeworthy for you LL!

Although I don't praise him for not bringing the dumbell back, he will often run out to the dumbell and then stop and look around. Once he gets it he is fine and returns happily with it.

The last two days I have gone back several steps, to just placing it on the ground, then throwing only a small distance, with no stay before hand. This has increased Diesel's enthusiasm and he is looking better today.

[Lablover]

OK that is somewhat worse than Diesel's retrieve but if I don't work on it, it does look rather similar :D Must be cringeworthy for you LL!

Although I don't praise him for not bringing the dumbell back, he will often run out to the dumbell and then stop and look around. Once he gets it he is fine and returns happily with it.

The last two days I have gone back several steps, to just placing it on the ground, then throwing only a small distance, with no stay before hand. This has increased Diesel's enthusiasm and he is looking better today.

Kavik,

I wish to apologise, if you think I am belitting you. I have been away from home for nearly a week and am relaxing on DOL.

That fellow, was very annoying. A perfect example of unnecessary praise in the hope of maintaining drive (interest or whatever). I actually shouted, shut up, a couple of times, while watching the link.

[Kavik]

Don't worry LL, I know you are not belittling me

For someone who expects so much from their dogs' retrieve, that must have been frustrating to watch We have a way to go on our retrieve, maintaining interest is our main obstacle. I have no problem admitting that :D

[Arya]

7. Finally, repeating the same excercise that the dog fails in is not helping...

K9, I have a theory that when a dog is learning something new and they are becoming confused, I always stop and then end on a positive note by finishing off with something so simple for the dog (where possible) that they do it easily and don't fail, then big praise. In this way I think they don't lose their confidence in training and are keen to try again later. So for example, if my dog is stuffing up something I might just ask her to shake hands before we pack up for a while and try something else or try again another time. Or speak, or something she likes to do and can do without thinking. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or is this just a crackpot theory of mine LOL?

[Steve K9Pro]

7. Finally, repeating the same excercise that the dog fails in is not helping...

K9, I have a theory that when a dog is learning something new and they are becoming confused, I always stop and then end on a positive note by finishing off with something so simple for the dog (where possible) that they do it easily and don't fail, then big praise. In this way I think they don't lose their confidence in training and are keen to try again later. So for example, if my dog is stuffing up something I might just ask her to shake hands before we pack up for a while and try something else or try again another time. Or speak, or something she likes to do and can do without thinking. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or is this just a crackpot theory of mine LOL?

K9: There are a million ways to train dogs, few of them are crack pot theories lol.. But if I were the dog, & I just couldnt get it, & you step in & give me an easy solution to win the reward, I wouldnt be too pressed to push hard next time... Thats one thought..

When training in drive, I would (if the dog was confused) break down the excercises in smaller, bite sized chunks. If the dog at any time gets stressed, I would build some drive by putting movement into the toy, this will clear the dogs mind....Then asking for another attempt at the excercise.

[Arya]

7. Finally, repeating the same excercise that the dog fails in is not helping...

K9, I have a theory that when a dog is learning something new and they are becoming confused, I always stop and then end on a positive note by finishing off with something so simple for the dog (where possible) that they do it easily and don't fail, then big praise. In this way I think they don't lose their confidence in training and are keen to try again later. So for example, if my dog is stuffing up something I might just ask her to shake hands before we pack up for a while and try something else or try again another time. Or speak, or something she likes to do and can do without thinking. What are your thoughts? Do you agree or is this just a crackpot theory of mine LOL?

K9: There are a million ways to train dogs, few of them are crack pot theories lol.. But if I were the dog, & I just couldnt get it, & you step in & give me an easy solution to win the reward, I wouldnt be too pressed to push hard next time... Thats one thought..

When training in drive, I would (if the dog was confused) break down the excercises in smaller, bite sized chunks. If the dog at any time gets stressed, I would build some drive by putting movement into the toy, this will clear the dogs mind....Then asking for another attempt at the excercise.

Oh boy, I make it WAY too easy for my girl LOL. I bet she thought of what you are saying a long time ago. "Hmmm, if I stuff up I'll get to do something easy and get the reward anyway." I will bear this in mind!!! I will try breaking down even smaller and building drive for another attempt next time this situation occurs instead and see what happens! This happens occasionally with box directed jumping and what you are saying could be the answer. I am too soft!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

Oh boy, I make it WAY too easy for my girl LOL. I bet she thought of what you are saying a long time ago. "Hmmm, if I stuff up I'll get to do something easy and get the reward anyway." I will bear this in mind!!!

K9: best thing you can do is measure the amount of effort she will go to now, compared to before...

remember that frustrtion is the number one drive building tool....

I will try breaking down even smaller and building drive for another attempt next time this situation occurs instead and see what happens! This happens occasionally with box directed jumping and what you are saying could be the answer. I am too soft!!!

K9: Let us know how you go, or if your confused, post up what yor trying to achieve & I will give you some pointers...

[Lablover]

remember that frustrtion is the number one drive building tool

How long is the average time before rewarding an experienced high drive dog?

I wanted to add, I am sure I would have never been able to turn Yo around without this type of training.

[Staranais]

Can I please ask another question about training in drive, Steve?

If you're wanting to teach your dog to do something passive, like a very long down stay, is it better (easier or more reliable) to do this in drive, or to teach it another way? I'm just asking since dogs working in drive are so focused and intense, and I was wondering if it was reasonable to ask a dog maintain that level of focus on the prey item for that length of time (for example to stay in drive for a 30 min out of sight down stay). Or would it be better to teach a stay another way, eg with food then corrections, so that the dog can just relax while in the stay? Most of the dogs I see doing long down stays in competitions seem to be nearly asleep on the stays, they all seem so relaxed.

Thanks, and sorry if that's a daft question!

[Steve K9Pro]

LL: How long is the average time before rewarding an experienced high drive dog?

K9: In reality, the "average" time would be something that is looked at in retrospect, in other words after a training session. If your asking what "should be" the average, I guess I feel it is goal dependant. In an ob trial it would be desireable for the dog to easily be able to complete the complete pattern with expecing a reward. But I do feel that verbal markers throughout the pattern would help with motivation.

In training I would be increasing the amount of excercises the dog has to do to pay for the item, & when I got to the desired results, I would start randomising when the item is given & randomise when I would build a little drive.

I find this keeps the dog on its toes rather thanbecoming complacent because it knows the item is not due yet...

LL: I wanted to add, I am sure I would have never been able to turn Yo around without this type of training.

K9: Thanks Julie, that means a lot to me to hear that from you...

[Steve K9Pro]

A: Can I please ask another question about training in drive, Steve?

K9: Just one more lol...

A: If you're wanting to teach your dog to do something passive, like a very long down stay, is it better (easier or more reliable) to do this in drive, or to teach it another way?

K9: Very long down stay to me is something over say 5 minutes. When I want to do this, I teach it traditionally so that the dog goes out of drive when told to stay. This makes for an easier compliance & long stays in drive tend to turn on the dogs nerves.

As I think I have mentioned earlier in this book, lol, I use commands in english for out of drive requirements,German commands for in drive requirements.

If you use the oldest training rule that I believe in "the command must be an opportunity for the dog to earn a reward", The command given should convey to the dog what it will get if it does the work right. I would say to my dog platz (German command for down), my dog would expect a prey reward, toy, man etc... So would drop in drive, give full focus & be ready to spring.

If I say drop, the dog will expect a pack drive reward (praise or physical attention) & will go down but not be waiting to spring....

A: Most of the dogs I see doing long down stays in competitions seem to be nearly asleep on the stays, they all seem so relaxed.

K9: I would expect a dog in competition to do the required stay in drive, thats not so long & I want the dog focussed & ready to explode toward me out of the stay...

I dont want the dog relaxed, sniffing the other dogs, getting distracted etc. To combat this it would take more frequent use of aversives which in turn would lower drive & cost me points elsewhere...

Does that make sense?

[Staranais]

K9: Just one more lol...

Aw, is my quota up already?

K9: I would expect a dog in competition to do the required stay in drive, thats not so long & I want the dog focussed & ready to explode toward me out of the stay...

Perhaps it depends what competitions you're doing? CD over here has a 5 min out of sight down stay, UD is a 10 min out of sight down. Would you expect the dog to do those stays in drive? They just seem quite a long time for the dog to stay focused.

Does that make sense?

I think so - you're saying for short stays (or stays where you want the dog to do something energetic afterwards) use a drive command so the dog stays focused, long stays (or stays where the dog isn't going to be doing drive work immediately after) you would use a non-drive command with a food or pack reward. Is that right?

Thanks heaps!

[MonElite]

Perhaps it depends what competitions you're doing? CD over here has a 5 min out of sight down stay, UD is a 10 min out of sight down. Would you expect the dog to do those stays in drive? They just seem quite a long time for the dog to stay focused

also what does the dog focus on if the handler is out of sight - the last spot the handler went to when in sight?

[Arya]

Oh boy, I make it WAY too easy for my girl LOL. I bet she thought of what you are saying a long time ago. "Hmmm, if I stuff up I'll get to do something easy and get the reward anyway." I will bear this in mind!!!

K9: best thing you can do is measure the amount of effort she will go to now, compared to before...

remember that frustrtion is the number one drive building tool....

I will try breaking down even smaller and building drive for another attempt next time this situation occurs instead and see what happens! This happens occasionally with box directed jumping and what you are saying could be the answer. I am too soft!!!

K9: Let us know how you go, or if your confused, post up what yor trying to achieve & I will give you some pointers...

Ooh, thanks K9! I will see if I can work out how hard she will try and how much she will work to nut out the problem and post up what happens. With box, it is strange. She loves the directed jumping part and will FLY over the jumps. And she will run out to the box well too but lately she has had an occasional glitch where she stops part way on the way out and sits, or even drops. I suspect she is getting confused with my hand signals too, as I have also taught her 'on your mark' to run to and stand on a square of carpet and also 'voraus' to run to the drop for schutzhund (a very weak one compared to the good dogs but we're building on it). This is my fault and I have to get my part of the team together too!!!

I taught each excercise a slightly different way, the theory being (another crackpotLOL) that the visual memory in the dog's mind whilst learning would be different and she would be less likely to shoot out to the box, say, and drop. This indeed has proved very successful... until now. But it could be she isn't bothered to try hard enough so she can get to the jumps with box and directed jumping. She just wants to get to the jumping part first! So I will see what happens to build more drive before I send her out.