Prey Drive Control & Focus..

[MonElite]

what was said LL?

[Lablover]

what was said LL?

The article was related to information achieved, to links to various sites.

Frankly I was surprised they visited Australian links, as avoidance training, force, negative re enforcement, conditioning to such etc is more common in their own country.

[Winterpaws]

LL is that an Australian Journal? The one I am thinking of is done by Sydney Uni - maybe this is another journal?

[Arya]

K9, I apologise if this question has been asked before too I have a GSD who really lacks nerve but drive training has been the key to building her confidence and getting her to focus and work for me just about anywhere. She is terrific - fires up just at the sight of ball and works brilliantly, forgets about any other dogs, only sees me and the ball and the game... except at trials the minute we step into the ring and of course, no ball in sight. She stargazes, even forgets how to sit (can't pass novice yet trained to UD LOL) and yet, outside of the ring with her lead on, is fine. The disconnection of the lead seems to switch her off yet we don't work on a lead in training. Someone suggested to me she is being naughty and needs a kick up the butt but I just don't believe it. She just gets kind of lost. I am now working on a new strategy of as well as using a marker word and the ball, inserting a sound and fast hand movement between the two to try to classically condition her to switch into prey drive by the sound and hand movement alone. It seems to be working (I hope) and the big test will be at the next trial in a couple of weeks. All very nice to go well in a trial but the real thing for me is to try to win the battle against the dog's lack of nerve and her displacement behaviours which seem to be caused by fear. Any suggestions? Do you think my idea might work?

Your next seminar down in Melbourne is on the top of my list!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9, I apologise if this question has been asked before too ;) I have a GSD who really lacks nerve but drive training has been the key to building her confidence and getting her to focus and work for me just about anywhere.

K9: Thats great to hear, but this also suggests that her nerves arent that bad as when nerves are bad it is very hard to trigger prey drive in a new environment where confidence isnt strong

She is terrific - fires up just at the sight of ball and works brilliantly, forgets about any other dogs, only sees me and the ball and the game... except at trials the minute we step into the ring and of course, no ball in sight. She stargazes, even forgets how to sit (can't pass novice yet trained to UD LOL) and yet, outside of the ring with her lead on, is fine. The disconnection of the lead seems to switch her off yet we don't work on a lead in training. Someone suggested to me she is being naughty and needs a kick up the butt but I just don't believe it.

K9: your correct, aversives will only worsen this particular problem... Aversives are used to reduce, control & extinguish drive, I have a rule that says never add pressure to pressure...

She just gets kind of lost. I am now working on a new strategy of as well as using a marker word and the ball, inserting a sound and fast hand movement between the two to try to classically condition her to switch into prey drive by the sound and hand movement alone. It seems to be working (I hope) and the big test will be at the next trial in a couple of weeks. All very nice to go well in a trial but the real thing for me is to try to win the battle against the dog's lack of nerve and her displacement behaviours which seem to be caused by fear. Any suggestions?

K9: Yes of course...!

Do you think my idea might work?

K9: No.

Your next seminar down in Melbourne is on the top of my list!

K9: Mine too! lol..

Suggestions, the marker word should be an integral part of drive training anyway, what it will help is to identify to the dog that it has compeleted the correct move.

The problem you have is that you dont own the trigger. You are using fast movement of the ball to "trigger" your dogs prey drive, now when the ball isnt in sight, no trigger = no drive... Correct???

What you need to do is..

Start every training session with the ball out of sight, & with a lot of enthusiasm say a key or trigger word which is said over and over a few times just before presenting the ball & making drive (putting a lot of movement into the ball).

What your looking for is the dog to hear the trigger word, & go into drive without seeing the ball.

Then complete very short excercise such as sit, then reward, begin to add excercises as you need them to extend the amount of time the dog can remain in drive without needing to sight the ball..

I use the phrase, you ready to work?...

The marker word, I use "yes" & its used after every time the dog completes the correct action to mark / re inforce that action, I then like to give a release command such as OK to let the dog know he can now partake in the reward. (this stops the dog snatching at the ball out of opportunity)

The marker word, when used in this fashion, will become a secondary motivator which in a short time will help maintain the dogs drive through numerous excercies...

Excited use of the word to build dynamic actions such as fast sits drops recalls etc, slow calm stretched out use of the marker for focus excercises such as longer stays that you want the dog to explode at the end of..

When you have good progress, time your training sessions & make sure that you can trigger drive & keep it for 10 - 15% longer than the trial, of course you can re trigger as many times as need be, (by using the trigger word or phrase)...

Hows that?

[Arya]

Thanks a million K9!!! This is great and after answering this we are off to the park with our stuff to practice LOL.

K9: Thats great to hear, but this also suggests that her nerves arent that bad as when nerves are bad it is very hard to trigger prey drive in a new environment where confidence isnt strong

This sounds good and makes me feel a little relieved. She is a complicated dog (for me!!!) to work out.

K9: your correct, aversives will only worsen this particular problem... Aversives are used to reduce, control & extinguish drive, I have a rule that says never add pressure to pressure...

Glad you agree with my thoughts on this. When she really is naughty it's pretty damned obvious ;) This is not one of those occasions.

Suggestions, the marker word should be an integral part of drive training anyway, what it will help is to identify to the dog that it has compeleted the correct move.

The problem you have is that you dont own the trigger. You are using fast movement of the ball to "trigger" your dogs prey drive, now when the ball isnt in sight, no trigger = no drive... Correct???

What you need to do is..

Start every training session with the ball out of sight, & with a lot of enthusiasm say a key or trigger word which is said over and over a few times just before presenting the ball & making drive (putting a lot of movement into the ball).

What your looking for is the dog to hear the trigger word, & go into drive without seeing the ball.

Then complete very short excercise such as sit, then reward, begin to add excercises as you need them to extend the amount of time the dog can remain in drive without needing to sight the ball..

I use the phrase, you ready to work?...

The marker word, I use "yes" & its used after every time the dog completes the correct action to mark / re inforce that action, I then like to give a release command such as OK to let the dog know he can now partake in the reward. (this stops the dog snatching at the ball out of opportunity)

The marker word, when used in this fashion, will become a secondary motivator which in a short time will help maintain the dogs drive through numerous excercies...

Excited use of the word to build dynamic actions such as fast sits drops recalls etc, slow calm stretched out use of the marker for focus excercises such as longer stays that you want the dog to explode at the end of..

When you have good progress, time your training sessions & make sure that you can trigger drive & keep it for 10 - 15% longer than the trial, of course you can re trigger as many times as need be, (by using the trigger word or phrase)...

Oh, thanks HEAPS for this. On reading what you say I can see that I was starting at exactly the wrong end in trying to trigger her drive!!! I was searching around to think of something new and you are so right, I don't own the trigger at all. I have printed off what you have written and am about to start work on it ;)

Interesting to use a marker AND a release to stop the dog snatching at the ball. I will try this too as this is an issue we have and even though she's not large by GSD standards, it's no fun having the dog throw themselves at you full force to get the reward when they are super excited!

Thank you so much again for the advice.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: your welcome, my Triangle of temptation gives a run down on where the positive marker is used, that may help you, or the other option is the Distance Learning Packages that I do, we have one on training in drive. This will cover the use of the motivator, the markers both positive & the no reward marker to help guide the dog, the release command & the understanding of how a re enforcer works with timing...

Just make sure you dont throw the toy/tug or ball..

But good luck & let us know how you go?

Edited April 30, 2007 by K9 Force

[J...]

Dammit Steve you make it sound so easy! ;)

Arya I have to thank you for asking such a question - have been tearing my hair out since my second trial as to what was going on with my dog, yes we got passes, even placings and her CCD title but I kept thinking "she can do so much better than this" ;) Now the lights just gone on ;) I hadn't tried the out of sight stuff, I have the trigger word but not the out of sight work.... thanks again Steve!! ;)

Edited April 30, 2007 by feralpup

[shoemonster]

What is the reason behind not throwing the tug/ball/etc?

[J...]

By throwing away the prey drive toy you are throwing away the reward. The idea is that YOU own the reward, the dog has to come to you to gain it.

[shoemonster]

Ok thanks

[Steve K9Pro]

Dammit Steve you make it sound so easy!

K9: It is that easy! (when yo know how)

Arya I have to thank you for asking such a question - have been tearing my hair out since my second trial as to what was going on with my dog, yes we got passes, even placings and her CCD title but I kept thinking "she can do so much better than this" ;) Now the lights just gone on I hadn't tried the out of sight stuff, I have the trigger word but not the out of sight work.... thanks again Steve!!

K9: you should have just emailed me, unlimited email support with all the private consults I do, even yours in Victorai! lol..

What is the reason behind not throwing the tug/ball/etc?

K9: FP is correct, it also creates several problems like the dog will learn to "field". Stand at a distance from you & wait for you to throw he ball...

Some dogs jump all over the handler trying to get them to throw the ball when they start focus work..

Edited May 1, 2007 by K9 Force

[Winterpaws]

Hey K9 - been a bit slack on those seminars this year

Can we please have one organised soon - winter at Kurrajong is an awesome time of the year`

Pretty please.......

Promise to wear some combat pants ;)

[Steve K9Pro]

Hey K9 - been a bit slack on those seminars this year ;)

Can we please have one organised soon - winter at Kurrajong is an awesome time of the year`

K9: yes it is Gods country after all... sure I am willing to do a workshop if there are enough interested.

Pretty please.......

Promise to wear some combat pants

K9: Well if you want to wear boots like mine, they are SWAT.

[dogdude]

Hi K9

What damage can you do to your dogs learning of working in drive, by attending a dog obedience club for the typical hour long class, by not atually working in drive while you are there?

Am I making sense?

In the early learning stages when the dog would not be able to remain in drive for that long, would it be harmfull to still work a dog to get socialisation benefits from the club?

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi K9

What damage can you do to your dogs learning of working in drive, by attending a dog obedience club for the typical hour long class, by not atually working in drive while you are there?

Am I making sense?

In the early learning stages when the dog would not be able to remain in drive for that long, would it be harmfull to still work a dog to get socialisation benefits from the club?

K9: difficult question to answer in other than a very long explanation, but the basics are:

Often some ob clubs dogs to do certain things to get a certain reward or avoid punishment. They reward the dog NOT going into drive...

This often produces a dog that will not go into drive in the close vacinity of te handler, I call this the "12 foot circle of control". This means that the dog is heavily controlled with the realms of the 6ft leash (circle around the handler that is 12 feet in dia.)

This makes it very hard or I believe impossible to get the most out of the dog in terms of drive...

I also feel that you can inflate the dogs prey drive to its genetic capablility if the dog is trained in drive from very young (I start 6 weeks ol with my own pups, 7.5 weeks with a pup I would buy)..

I think some of that capability is lost if you start other programs first, specially those that deal with teaching the dog to focus or be calm first.

[Rom]

K9: you should have just emailed me, unlimited email support with all the private consults I do, even yours in Victorai! lol..

Yeah, but at least here we get to see the answers to questions we didn't think to ask

Hi K9

What damage can you do to your dogs learning of working in drive, by attending a dog obedience club for the typical hour long class, by not atually working in drive while you are there?

Am I making sense?

In the early learning stages when the dog would not be able to remain in drive for that long, would it be harmfull to still work a dog to get socialisation benefits from the club?

K9: difficult question to answer in other than a very long explanation, but the basics are:

Often some ob clubs dogs to do certain things to get a certain reward or avoid punishment. They reward the dog NOT going into drive...

This often produces a dog that will not go into drive in the close vacinity of te handler, I call this the "12 foot circle of control". This means that the dog is heavily controlled with the realms of the 6ft leash (circle around the handler that is 12 feet in dia.)

This makes it very hard or I believe impossible to get the most out of the dog in terms of drive...

I also feel that you can inflate the dogs prey drive to its genetic capablility if the dog is trained in drive from very young (I start 6 weeks ol with my own pups, 7.5 weeks with a pup I would buy)..

I think some of that capability is lost if you start other programs first, specially those that deal with teaching the dog to focus or be calm first.

I so agree to this as far as my personal situation goes! I still utilise my dog club, but in a more informal and irregular way. I don't actually put my dog in a class any more, rather use the club activities as distraction, and work off to the side on my own. I'm getting much more enthusiastic results. It gives me the flexibility to release her for the reward when her actions dictate rather than when an instructor tells me to. I can work her in time slots that protect her level of focus and attitude and extend these time slots as she develops without risking focus and attitude. If I were doing all this in a class with the way things are done at my local dog club, we would just be either disrupting the class or destroying what we have achieved so far. I'm really impressed and happy with the way she is working at the moment and she is much happier with the work too.

[Arya]

K9: your welcome, my Triangle of temptation gives a run down on where the positive marker is used, that may help you, or the other option is the Distance Learning Packages that I do, we have one on training in drive. This will cover the use of the motivator, the markers both positive & the no reward marker to help guide the dog, the release command & the understanding of how a re enforcer works with timing...

Just make sure you dont throw the toy/tug or ball..

But good luck & let us know how you go?

Thank you again K9 I will go to your site and look up the distance learning package as this I am definitely interested in. I won't throw the ball/tug (she goes mad for both luckily for me!)as you say. So far the dog is really enjoying this and I think it has part to do with my behaviour too. Maybe we should both go into drive before we enter the ring LOL. It's too quiet and formal at those trials!!!

Hey Dogdude, great question and a very interesting answer! When I first started taking classes at a local ob club and tried to liven things up a bit and get a bunch of dogs who were basically going to sleep in class excited again, the handlers actually got worried when their dogs start to show some action and excitement, bouncing around. It was kind of considered 'uncontrollable' and going into drive was definitely a no-no . They seem to enjoy themselves much better these days but still, they don't like too much action from their dogs even though they're generally small classes and not out of control. Sad, isn't it!!!

[J...]

K9: you should have just emailed me, unlimited email support with all the private consults I do, even yours in Victorai! lol..

mmmm yes I know, its so easy to ask a question when you know what the question is.... Will email you anyway - have a further suspicion as to whats going on!

[mutchumbo]

I have an issue with my current dog Ben, he's a Rottweiler and still just a young pup. However, my role with him includes building a strong prey & retrieve. At the moment he shows a lot of interest with holding & tug-o-war but loses a lot of focus when it comes to the retrieve, if I throw something, he might grab it the first couple of times, then he loses interest. (Granted he's young) I've attached a video link, just something I stumbled accross on Youtube, Ben acts very much so like the dog depicted in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-EVKtvxeBI

Any suggestions what I can do to increase his focus and drive when it comes to retrieve??? (Please, no mention of pinching ears.)

Thanks in advance!