Prey Drive Control & Focus..

[Lablover]

The dog needs to leave drive peak & go into initialisation & think about the sit, then back into peak to complete the sit....

for now she runs up to me, I move the ball higher and higher and she uses me as a springboard to get to it. Mind you she never succeeded in grabbing it out of my hand.

Gotta love her.

Just as a note, so far I have not trained her to sit after the recall, the recall itself was the excercise, so I rewarded her for making it all the way to me. Im now at the next step of asking for more.

Ok I think I need more focus work.

I am confused Myszka,

Does not the dog know power and strength do not gain the reward?

[MonElite]

Does not the dog know power and strength do not gain the reward?

obviously not yet

[Lablover]

I am stuck at home waiting for a fellow to arrive to replace a cracked windscreen in my dog vehicle, so I watched your Utube. I have to admit my timing and technique is very different from yours.

Interesting!!!!

If my hair was looking better (to say nothing about the rest of me), I would video myself and send you, what I do. LOL.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Lablover

[Lablover]

Ooops.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Lablover

[MonElite]

I have to admit my timing and technique is very different from yours.

Interesting!!!!

Id say that your timing is the correct one and mine is completly wrong.

You are a pro, Im a "young" inexperienced amateur. I demand your videos, noone looks a the hair of the handler, they all look a the dogs LL! you can of course send them to me privatelly if you preffer

Edited October 4, 2006 by myszka

[J...]

Yeah come on LL we wanna see your prey drive videos....

[Seita]

Ok I have a question as well, after being at K9's workshop in Gympie a few weekends ago I started drive building with my 5 month old border collie pup. Ive been teasing her with the toy several times a day for abit over a week now, when we started she was really REALLY keen on getting the toy and would just spend the whole time lunging for the item but over the last few days shes slowed down and she watches the item the whole time but doesn't lunge and doesn't seem to be in drive for it? Could it be that I have done or am doing something wrong?

Oh I forgot to mention, that when I take her out to tease her she starts out fairly keen but then slows off after a minute or two.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Seita

[wheres my rock]

we are currently doing the prey drive course with a fox terrier and boy is she ful on we are heading into week three but taking a step back as shes teething but shes got the dea of switching her drive on on her wrrk word and off when i walk away and is giving up the toy on cue so im pretty happy

Edited October 4, 2006 by wheres my rock

[m-j]

K9: to keep drive you must remove motivation by asking for excercises that dont bring reward.

When you say ask for exercises that don't bring reward, is that only at that moment but are exercises that in the past have brought a reward?

cheers

M-J

[Steve K9Pro]

S: Ok I have a question as well, after being at K9's workshop in Gympie a few weekends ago I started drive building with my 5 month old border collie pup. Ive been teasing her with the toy several times a day for abit over a week now, when we started she was really REALLY keen on getting the toy and would just spend the whole time lunging for the item but over the last few days shes slowed down and she watches the item the whole time but doesn't lunge and doesn't seem to be in drive for it? Could it be that I have done or am doing something wrong?

Oh I forgot to mention, that when I take her out to tease her she starts out fairly keen but then slows off after a minute or two.

K9: some pups have limited physical ability at the beginning, so I would suggest training only for 1 - 2 minutes, leave her dying for it, not glad you stopped...

Your pup has boot loads of drive though...

Observe the dogs overall temperament & if you see a fear period coming on, back off until its gone...

Check this page..

[Steve K9Pro]

Mj: When you say ask for exercises that don't bring reward, is that only at that moment but are exercises that in the past have brought a reward?

K9: not exactly sure what you mean, can you rephrase please?

[Seita]

Thanks K9, thats what I started doing as well! I just wasn't sure on the reason.

[m-j]

K9: not exactly sure what you mean, can you rephrase please?

Ummm it is so hard to explain things my understanding is........when a dog has learnt a behaviour through drive satisfaction, asking for the behaviour can trigger drive and if the dog gets asked for behaviours that it has a reinforcement history for, but doesn't actually get rewarded for at that moment, it will keep working in the hope that reward will come and become keener but if you go on too long the dog will start to loose drive.

K9: to keep drive you must remove motivation by asking for excercises that dont bring reward.

What I am having trouble with is I don't understand how you can keep drive if the behaviours the dog is doing aren't associated with drive training. an example of what I'm trying to say is your drive training cues and around the home cues (for want of better terminology). If you gave 5 around the home cues I don't understand how that would put your dogs into drive, let alone keep it. Or have I completely missed the point??

cheers

M-J

[Steve K9Pro]

MJ: when a dog has learnt a behaviour through drive satisfaction, asking for the behaviour can trigger drive and if the dog gets asked for behaviours that it has a reinforcement history for, but doesn't actually get rewarded for at that moment, it will keep working in the hope that reward will come and become keener but if you go on too long the dog will start to loose drive.

K9: yes this is correct, but the dog in question doesnt know how to add the sit from a fast recall so it needs to learn this, starting an intermitant reward system when learning a new excercise is not going to the best way to maintain drive...

MJ: What I am having trouble with is I don't understand how you can keep drive if the behaviours the dog is doing aren't associated with drive training. :D an example of what I'm trying to say is your drive training cues and around the home cues (for want of better terminology). If you gave 5 around the home cues I don't understand how that would put your dogs into drive, let alone keep it. Or have I completely missed the point??

K9: ok, I use two separate commands for everything, in english the commands equal opportnity to earn a pack drive reward (pat or praise from Alpha).

In German they are an opportunity to earn a prey drive reward.

I dont use those when I am unable to give that reward.

Is that what you mean?

[MonElite]

I dont know if this is correct or not correct, will this cause me any dramas later or not but this is what I have done and it worked.

Got the ball out and played, did some heeling but it was shocking so I swaped the ball for food for heeling. Heeling is the worst excercise she is doing.

Asked for a recall didnt give a treat asked for a sit got a sit gave the treat.

Done this few times giving or not giving the treat after the recall and second after the sit.

Got the ball out and asked for a recall and a sit and after few times she somewhat got the point.

Well so I hope.

So what kind of problems did I create doing this?

[Steve K9Pro]

M: I dont know if this is correct or not correct, will this cause me any dramas later or not but this is what I have done and it worked.

K9: Standing on her back will get her to sit also, but that doesnt make it right...

M: Got the ball out and played, did some heeling but it was shocking so I swaped the ball for food for heeling. Heeling is the worst excercise she is doing.

Asked for a recall didnt give a treat asked for a sit got a sit gave the treat.

Done this few times giving or not giving the treat after the recall and second after the sit.

Got the ball out and asked for a recall and a sit and after few times she somewhat got the point.

Well so I hope.

So what kind of problems did I create doing this?

K9: your mixing up the reward process, usually when you try & train more excercises the dog isnt clear headed, & you will strike a big slow down.

Here are some problems, your dog doesnt know that speed & power are not the answer.

Your dog thinks if she doesnt go well for the prey item, no probs, mum will feed me anyway.

You got results because amongst the confusion your dog most likely went out of drive & sat in a conscious situation, this training will have no effect if she ever does recall in prey drive again.

Lazy trainers keep swapping the rewards to see instant results, but they soon find they just get a confused dog...

[MonElite]

Here are some problems, your dog doesnt know that speed & power are not the answer.

After having recall issues with Rex I become really keen on the speed of the recall for the puppy and rewarded this big time. I guess for a pet its great. if I want to compete I need to stop being a lazy trainer than.

Thanks for pointing the errors out.

but how do I do it in prey drive, its nice to know the theory, can you give me a practical solution to this

The dog needs to leave drive peak & go into initialisation & think about the sit, then back into peak to complete the sit....

Im guessing this is an answer

If your dog is returning in prey drive, when she is 10 feet from you, start to pull your prey item out of your jacket or pocket & move it slowly higher & higher with the sit command.

but 10 ft from me she is already fast and in drive peak and getting ready to get the ball.

Do shorter distance for a recall?

Edited October 5, 2006 by myszka

[m-j]

K9: yes this is correct, but the dog in question doesnt know how to add the sit from a fast recall so it needs to learn this, starting an intermitant reward system when learning a new excercise is not going to the best way to maintain drive...

Yes I agree I teach the 2 things, 3 things if you include the finish, initially as seperate exercises, then put them together, until the sequence of ewvents has been put together and the dog is familiar with the sequence I don't go on a VSR (variable schedule of reinforcement), I believe you need to build a reinforcement history for the behaviour/s before starting a VSR.

So when you mentioned removing motivation that threw me as I think even if the dog is not being rewarded for the behaviours he still is being motivated by the cues, unless being given cues he has no prey drive reinforcement/satisfaction history for, ie your at home/english cues. So I'm still confused.

I did think that maybe you were saying that to get the dog to be clear headed enough to think and learn you needed to remove the motivator. I had a very high food drive Lab that when I wanted to teach her something I would feed her before training and use low powered rewards as she was so keen to get drive satisfaction. 1/2 her brain went taa taa when hungry and if I was using high powered rewards, great for getting duration on known behaviours tho or to go onto a VSR.

( It's ok that you are probably going this woman is thick, my hubby would agree with you :D )

K9: ok, I use two separate commands for everything, in english the commands equal opportnity to earn a pack drive reward (pat or praise from Alpha).

In German they are an opportunity to earn a prey drive reward.

I dont use those when I am unable to give that reward.

Is that what you mean?

yep.

cheers

M-J

[Steve K9Pro]

M: if I want to compete I need to stop being a lazy trainer than.

K9: Sorry, I wasnt meaning your a lazy trainer, just meant I have seen a lot of Pro Trainers who have either been told or shown different, revert to varying the reward type as it seemed to give the same or instant results, but they only found failure later.

Not you..

M: Thanks for pointing the errors out.

K9: No such thing as a sure thing, but these are problems I have seen come out of these actions.

M: but how do I do it in prey drive, its nice to know the theory, can you give me a practical solution to this

K9: yes but typing it here wouldnt be "practical".

M: but 10 ft from me she is already fast and in drive peak and getting ready to get the ball.

Do shorter distance for a recall?

K9: no, getting the ball is the dogs problem, not your problem, you already have it, let her run full speed & give her the sit command as you raise the ball.

The ball will draw her focus & slow up her drive so she may focus, when she sits drop (not throw) the ball to her, showing that speed & power are not the answer... Focus is..

MJ: So when you mentioned removing motivation that threw me as I think even if the dog is not being rewarded for the behaviours he still is being motivated by the cues, unless being given cues he has no prey drive reinforcement/satisfaction history for, ie your at home/english cues. So I'm still confused.

K9: no the commands (cues) are triggers, the reward is drive satisfaction.

IE: Giving the command alerts the dog that there is an opportunity to earn prey success, if the dog can carry out the excercise it will win.

I dont remove the reward at all? I said move the ball higher, not get intermitant with the reward.

MJ: I did think that maybe you were saying that to get the dog to be clear headed enough to think and learn you needed to remove the motivator.

K9: I wont use the item as a motivator (trigger), then I lose the power of the training when I havent got the motivator to show..

By clear headed I mean the dog knows what it will receive for what command, not one day food the next a ball..

MJ: I had a very high food drive Lab that when I wanted to teach her something I would feed her before training and use low powered rewards as she was so keen to get drive satisfaction. 1/2 her brain went taa taa when hungry and if I was using high powered rewards, great for getting duration on known behaviours tho or to go onto a VSR.

K9: I like to use a saying, make it the dogs problem & it will solve it.

I would have put this Lab into high food drive, then make it the dogs problems to get the food, I would help by offering a hint (command).

Then let the dog solve the problem, jumping on me wont solve it, following the command will...

Dogs can be quite smart when they are allowed to think for themselves...

[bret]

ok hi all

i have only gotten up to page 14 of this 36 page battle.

I was also at the gympie workshop with K9 and started work with maiya straight away. I have also got a 6 month old border collie, so i am quite sure taht she has bucketloads of energy, but not sure where it is to be used yet.

i have been annoying poor steve like crazy with how my dog is doing and the 'am i doing it wrong' questions and such. i do have one to put to everyone.

i realised today when i went out ( btw i am now at week 1.6, so only 1 week and 1 day left of ground work so to speak) to play with my dog and her sister was there. i had no toys or anyhting, just started runnign around. i got them both so worked up they were barking and yelping and nipping at me all excited like.

i am assuming that this is the type of reaction i am trying to get when i am playing iwth the orbi ball. i have modified it to put a piece of hide which she loves chewing. after finding out i was doing it for too long, i shortened the time to about 1 to 2 minutes, she was still lunging for the ball, but her excitement never got above 'hey if i try i can get it, but i might not try to hard, if i win it, cool if not, well i'll just stand here a minutes, stretch my legs look at the butterfly fly past my nose oh hang on what was i doing, yeah the ball 0 lunge0.' i put the ball on the end of a rope and that seemed to peak her interest a little more, chasing a rope with the ball is maybe more animated?

you are wondering where the question is right?

anyone who has a pup that has a higher threshold for prey drive, or has circumstances like mine where i think her pack drive might be higher, have any extra little things i can be doing to get her so excited about this ball that she wan'ts to just jump out of her skin?

and does age have something to do with the amount of drive they might have already? i notice a lot of the dogs on here are already nearly past 1 years old.

thanks

bret