Prey Drive Control & Focus..

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: old saying, "best handler makes the worst dog look good, worst handler makes the best dog look bad..."

[Lablover]

Can I also take the opportunity to thank Julie & Andrew for demonstrating their fantastic beautifully trained Search and Rescue dogs, on the Sunday of the drive seminar.

Also Leanne, you were marvellous. Great handling, but I had always thought that about you. I will never forget watching you at UD standard obedience. Poetry in motion. Such drive.

Edited: Julie could you send one of your labs over to help me find my damm glasses?

Edited November 23, 2005 by Lablover

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

Can I also take the opportunity to thank Julie & Andrew for demonstrating their fanstatic beautifully trained Search and Rescue dogs, on the Sunday of the drive seminar.

K9: I sent an email to Julie, thanking them too. Their dogs are trained to a level of excellence that impressed me no end.

Anyone that gets the opportunity to see them work their dogs should make the trip.

I have also asked would Julie & or Andrew like to speak at my next Vic seminar...

LL:

Also Leanne, you were marvellous. Great handling,

K9: yes the 8 or 9 out of 10 score I gave Leanne on handling was well deserved, there was a lot to be observed in her vocal tonation techniques...

watch the video you will see...

[FeralSam]

Steve

Thank you for showing us dry-noses the same level of patience you give your canines! I'm certain we are a much harder lot to train.

I came with an open mind, not knowing what to expect of the 2-day seminar or whether it would infact be of any use to me. I left armed with knowledge and a far better understanding of my dogs and of my ignorance to date.

My 7mth pup is a sooky, happy, bum-wiggling kind of "doofer" around me but does suffer insecurity when exposed to the unfamilar, sometimes barking and hiding behind me, trying to run away, cowering or even urinating. He does show moments of drive and confidence and I expect this training will assist him greatly.

My 13mth bitch is all go and has blinkers on when she spots her 'target'. When locked in, she's totally deaf to my varied attempts to recall her. She has a lot of energy and I need to harness & channel it constructively.

I started a training schedule Monday however due to work committments this week, worked the dogs about 10mins, twice daily. The dogs first appeared to take it as a bit of a game, a bit intrigued with the gadgetry and why one was restricted whilst the other was 'playing'. Within 24hrs, the bitch was rearing to go as soon as I picked up the gear! I also notice her giving me more committed attention.

Julie, you're a god-send to happily host these awesome events! I know you also gain from these seminars however your accepting and welcoming manner makes everything go so smoothly. BTW tell Andrew the pond looks fantastic!

I must add my compliments also on the incredible feat performed by the rescue dogs. As one of the 'lost' bodies I experienced firsthand the precision and promptness of their response upon 'discovering' me. I must add that these dogs not only are exceptional in what they do but they are actually enjoying themselves!

Sunday's practical segment on Prey Drive clearly showed that with even the smallest amount of prey-drive principals applied the dogs not only 'worked' better but were far more settled, focused and happier when performing the tasks requested of them. (Same could be said of the dry-noses!)

Steve, once again, Well Done and Thank You! ;)

Sam

[Sardog]

Thank you K9 & LL (the perfect hostess) for your positive comments (above) regarding our dogs.

Andrew & I enjoyed every minute of the seminar from start to finish and for someone with the expertise and calibre of K9 to reassure us that we have our dogs at the level he mentioned in the above post, is gratifying afterr the sacrifices and hard work we have put in over the past 3 years to get both our dogs internationally qualified search & rescue dogs.

K9, we are hopefully heading to Sydney in the New Year to train with the NSW Police Dog Squad at their purpose built disaster site and we will definitely meet again. Otherwise, catch up with you when you are coming south......

Thanks publically for your PM - you know what I said in my PM reply...

and....

BTW again....did you know that River is a son of Stamp? lolololol.

Cheers,

Julie

[Steve K9Pro]

FS:

Thank you for showing us dry-noses the same level of patience you give your canines! I'm certain we are a much harder lot to train.

K9: lol, the dogs are the easy part, its people that I struggle with at times.. lol, but everyone was so nice.

FS:

I started a training schedule Monday however due to work committments this week, worked the dogs about 10mins, twice daily. The dogs first appeared to take it as a bit of a game, a bit intrigued with the gadgetry and why one was restricted whilst the other was 'playing'. Within 24hrs, the bitch was rearing to go as soon as I picked up the gear! I also notice her giving me more committed attention.

K9: Well Im sure your mouth is watering with the prospect of how much can be built over the three weeks I recommend.

The dog will have drive & that may not even increase much or any at this age, however the drive the dog has is raw, unfocussed, once the drive becomes focussed you can begin training the steps.

FS:

Sunday's practical segment on Prey Drive clearly showed that with even the smallest amount of prey-drive principals applied the dogs not only 'worked' better but were far more settled, focused and happier when performing the tasks requested of them.

K9: yes I agree, there is a large difference in performance when the dog is working because it "wants to" rather than "has to".

The clear head elevates drive & removes issues...

SARDOG:

and for someone with the expertise and calibre of K9 to reassure us that we have our dogs at the level he mentioned in the above post, is gratifying

K9: nothing I said was at all an exaggeration, anyone reading this should take any opportunity they can to watch these Search & Rescue Dogs work, just watching will teach you & inspire you...

S:

K9, we are hopefully heading to Sydney in the New Year to train with the NSW Police Dog Squad at their purpose built disaster site and we will definitely meet again.

K9: that would be great, just give me plenty of notice...

S:

BTW again....did you know that River is a son of Stamp? lolololol.

K9: yes well, thats the word.... ;)

[Lablover]

LL:

Could you please state the % again of reliablity using compulsion training, training in drive and a combination of both.

K9: I can state my experience in the two. I have found when I have the right dog, with good nerves, good foundation & I have the availability of corrections if I need t go there, I can get a 100% reliable dog in the situations I have trained for.

LL:

I was reading during lunch a link which stated positive only resulted in 70% reliability (the article was a little vague regarding the dogs requirements).

K9: I have read similar, however, positive doesnt always, hardly often in fact go inot in depth training in prey drive, the results are also based on every dog that they tested, & weak nerved or dogs with low drives wont be nearly as reliable.

When I spoke of the forced retrieve vs the motivational retrieve, I feel that motivational will get you 95% of the points that you could get with Forced fetch, however, the problems the bleed over into the excercises both before & after the forced fetch have me prefer the motivational (prey drive) retrieve.

LL:

Could you please state the % again of reliablity using compulsion training, training in drive and a combination of both.

K9: I can state my experience in the two. I have found when I have the right dog, with good nerves, good foundation & I have the availability of corrections if I need t go there, I can get a 100% reliable dog in the situations I have trained for.

Hopefully, my following question will get SARDOG out of the cupboard so to speak and add her views.

Julie, I know it would be impossible to fully answer, without writing a book on your program on how you have trained high level Search and Rescue dogs, but corrections are never given. Please explain, as I am sure many are interested, in why corrections (or general obedience) are not part of your training.

Edited: My word, I need to go to quote school!!!!

Edited November 24, 2005 by Lablover

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

Hopefully, my following question will get SARDOG out of the cupboard so to speak and add her views.

K9: That would be great, but if you dont mind I have added some thoughts to..

LL:

how you have trained high level Search and Rescue dogs, but corrections are never given.

K9: corrections from the handler may not come, but the dog not getting the toy or a delay in getting the toy teaches the dog thats wrong.

If the drive program you use is solid, & your start with a puppy, corrections from the handler often arent needed.

Remember that corrections reduce drive so they should be avoided if possible, you could see Sunda how even verbal corrections from handlers had such a negative effect but when I had same handler smile & clap & run backwards it had positive effect.

Dogs are taught how to achieve drive satisfaction, step by step, when the handler doesnt make a mistake & ask for something not trained yet, mistakes arent often made by the dog.

Most traditional training is designed to stop a dog from doing something, so corrections are a neccessary evil if you like.

But this is not so with training in drive...

[Lablover]

LL:

Hopefully, my following question will get SARDOG out of the cupboard so to speak and add her views.

K9: That would be great, but if you dont mind I have added some thoughts to..

LL:

how you have trained high level Search and Rescue dogs, but corrections are never given.

K9: corrections from the handler may not come, but the dog not getting the toy or a delay in getting the toy teaches the dog thats wrong.

If the drive program you use is solid, & your start with a puppy, corrections from the handler often arent needed.

Remember that corrections reduce drive so they should be avoided if possible, you could see Sunda how even verbal corrections from handlers had such a negative effect but when I had same handler smile & clap & run backwards it had positive effect.

Dogs are taught how to achieve drive satisfaction, step by step, when the handler doesnt make a mistake & ask for something not trained yet, mistakes arent often made by the dog.

Most traditional training is designed to stop a dog from doing something, so corrections are a neccessary evil if you like.

But this is not so with training in drive...

Yes, good, fantastic post. Worth framing for everyone training in drive.!!!!

I am so looking forward to Julie adding also (is there anything left after K9's post) , as she is a cupboard poster. Come out, come out, come out. You are married to the boss, so you should have plenty of time!!! ;)

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: remembering that drive is a subconscious level of training, (subconscious reaction to stimuli) corrections bring things back to a conscious level...

Your lose the drive edge when you give corrections...

[Steve K9Pro]

& yes Julie, post your thoughts...

[yogibear]

I have ha the pleasure of seeings sardogs dogs work in obedience Her and Leannes always got my attention they were so foccussed and animated.

wehn i was first starting out i used to watch them train to get ideas on what they did that gave them all that focus lol I was too shy to go up and ask them .

Wehn i started dabbling in retrieving I used to watch Leanne train her dogs amazing stuff and Two of the nicest people in obedeince always thinking about the big picture.

yb

[Lablover]

I have just returned into the house again after yet again spinning around like a top. Finally I have learnt to keep my head more upright. My stomach is heaving (do not spin straight again eating and a cup of tea, BTW) and as the day is warm my head is pounding.

I know I asked you this question over the weekend, but thought to my delicate condition at this time it may be worthwhile asking the following question on technique.

With already "conditioned" dogs who have speed and focus on the item, can I start to initiate drive just by jiggy jig jig movements or pendulum swaying?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I find that if you weave left & right, the dog ends up flipping over, but you van now give satisfaction quicker with your dogs, so no spin, just hold you, turn once, give.

Hows that, for someone in your "delicate" condition...

[yogibear]

Ok Ll

You have me intrigued i want to see spinning top training in action sounds beter than a theme park ride

yb

[MonElite]

beter than a theme park ride

for sure gives you a head spin if you are not carefull ;)

[Sardog]

LL asked:

"why corrections (or general obedience) are not part of your training?".

We start our sardogs training from 6 weeks with small puppy runs and progress from there, ensuring that each step is cemented into the dogs mind before progressing to the next stage. This is how training of all dogs is done of course but you must be sure that the dog understands each phase and not be too quick to advance. Once the puppy starts making mistakes then you know that he/she doesn't fully understand the concept and this is where problems begin.

From the age of 6 - 16 weeks, the puppy has what we call the "will to serve" and given each breed is different, they are eager to please as long as the reward at the end of each training sessions is consistant and I mean CONSISTANT!

From 16 -(approx) 28 weeks the "will to power" takes over (aka teenage years). You don't tend to have any problems in this phase IF your training has been consistant.

The reward is the most important aspect of training the working dog and this reward MUST come from the handler.

Many dogs "fall by the wayside so to speak" because the reward for the dog is not consistant and often handlers take for granted that he has rewarded the dog enough.... not so. The reward is so very important. When we have the dogs come into the program who are older, this is the most common problem, the reward at the end is obviously not stimulating enough and toy reward is not important enough.

Our dogs don't make mistakes while they are searching, it is always the handler and we then analyse where the mistakes were made and we learn from them.

Quote: (General obedience) does come into our training but not formally, the dogs are asked to stay while wind direction is tested, stop on whistle command and direction. This is also started from puppies, however no correction is needed if this phase is also cemented. There would be nothing worse than having the dog not stop when told, going out and correcting and then expecting the dog to continue to search........the dog would lose focus in prey drive and not continue to use its own initiative.

Of course you have to have the right ingredients for a good search dog or any working dog, it is like baking a sponge cake and using plain flour instead of self-raising....you know the results!!!!!

The old saying goes LL:

"Baby steps, baby steps, baby steps, teach and build then build on what you teach!"

Cheers,

Julie

[yogibear]

Hi julie

that is really intereting and i love that saying at the end will have to keep that one..

yb

[Lablover]

The old saying goes LL:

"Baby steps, baby steps, baby steps, teach and build then build on what you teach!"

Cheers,

Julie

She's out of the cupboard.

Good on ya Jules!!!

Dogs are amazing. Still, a bit stupid, LOL,all that work for a toy.

No more spinning for me, BTW, I was really off colour last night.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Great post SARDOG, again another reaosn to put in the groundwork or foundation work, this means that your drives are solid before moving to the next step.

Some info on focus I would like to add.

I train so that I have focus & control, a key element to this is how you use your voice.

Speaking slowly to your dog is a quite flat tone can stabilise a dog thats having trouble getting its focus, raising your voice will elevate drive, knowing this & being able to control your voice is a way to vary the dogs drive levels, just like having your foot on the accelarator of a car..

Equally its a damaging to a training program as it is helpful if you dont recognise how it works & use it effectively.

Drives are drives, you raise your voice at a dog going into any drive & that drive goes higher, some examples, dog going into prey drive goes further (higher) into prey. Dog nervous of your on the edge of avoidance means dog goes into full avoidance & runs away. Dog about to show dog aggression through defence drive lunges & becomes more aggressive etc etc...

These are just some examples why focus & control start with the handler & flow on into the dog.

This also a vital step in the teaching section of each command, using a verbal marker is in my opinion a valued way of letting your dog know that he / she has got it right, the tone of your voice will mean more than the words & timing you use.

In practice you may be making drive for the toy spinning in the manner I do or another way, you be verbally encouraging the dog, when it comes to to stop making drive & get focus, you change your voice to a lower, slower tone that is clear & concise, this allows the dog to pull itself out of drive peak & focus on the action it needs to complete.

I feel that an excellent way to trouble shoot your training is to video or have someone video your training sessions, then go back & only look at your performance. Correct any mistakes your making, look at the smallest details, then & then only work on the dog.