Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 H: lol I expected it to be a bit more complicated than that. When you aske me in the other thread about how my dogs pack drive was I wan't sure how to answer. K9: I have added some more to clarify. H:" Loki does this and very well I might add! I wondered if working on this would be good for his confidence, but I fear that if he learns that is they way to deal with issues outside the home, it will be like opening the floodgates to fear aggression, which he has never shown before. I've been 'lucky' in that respect because if he were a fear biter he would be an extremely dangerous dog K9: the only time that I believe a dog should be encouraged for aggression is when it has nerves solid enough to make decisions under pressure, not be too quick on the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) When I see the dog start to go into pack drive for me, I know that it is gaining respect for me, desires emotional response from me.Its when I see that I have this I move on. What exactly do you see? What behaviours define a dog working in pack drive? Loki isn't keen much for a pat, not 'smoochy' like Nova is, but he is very responsive to me and was even before training, I believe out of respect. He also shows me the right body language, defers to me all situations, doesn't leave a certain area around me when he is off lead etc. Would you consider those things related to pack drive? Edited November 4, 2005 by haven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: the only time that I believe a dog should be encouraged for aggression is when it has nerves solid enough to make decisions under pressure, not be too quick on the trigger. Yes I suspect that reinforcing his aggression would open a huge can of worms that I'd never be able to close. I don't want him to think that aggression will solve the situation if he feels uncomfortable any more than I want him to feel avoidance does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 H: What exactly do you see? What behaviours define a dog working in pack drive? K9: To use my example from the Info nite the other nite so we are talking real time, not hypos I cant prove, lol. I took the female Dobe, Image, she was a leash puller, I walked her off & she was split between paying attention to her owner, 10 feet away & the feedom of the golf course. We started the leash work & after several minutes, she started to look at me for guidance, she started to really respond to my praise like it meant something to her, by now we had been training about 3 minutes, I slowed her down so the onlookers could see the transformation from pulling like a steam train to walking on a loose leash. I then began the recall, with no bond or pack drive the only reason any dog would come back is for food or to avoid correction. As I had pack drive & didnt bring any food, I was able to recall her 10 / 10 times. I then had to get another dog as it was looking a little sus that I had been training her before lol... So repeated the same with male Dobe, dont remember his name... Slowed him down to about 10 minutes? But this is why training in drive, be it prey, pack or food is so good, because it is accurate & fast. H: but he is very responsive to me and was even before training, I believe out of respect. He also shows me the right body language, defers to me all situations, doesn't leave a certain area around me when he is off lead etc. Would you consider those things related to pack drive? K9: yes. Keep in mind that DRIVE is a subconscious reaction to stimuli, usually powered by adrenalin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) H Yes I suspect that reinforcing his aggression would open a huge can of worms that I'd never be able to close. I don't want him to think that aggression will solve the situation if he feels uncomfortable any more than I want him to feel avoidance does. K9: having said all of that, spending some time in a drive where the dog feels confident can be excellent therapy. This is why many recommend flyball & agility... The only reason I hesitate is that I cant see how the dogs feel in the environment as Im not there. Edited November 4, 2005 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 you have two toys as a prey items. Practically identical. Somehow the dog is far more interested/satisfied by one more than the other one. What do you do? continue with the one thats more satisfying, raise a value of the less satysfying, get a brand new third one? Or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: & here is a twist, this is why I allow other say fear aggressive dogs to play with my GSD. Now someone has got to question this based on the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 M: you have two toys as a prey items. Practically identical.Somehow the dog is far more interested/satisfied by one more than the other one. What do you do? continue with the one thats more satisfying, raise a value of the less satysfying, get a brand new third one? Or? K9: get a new one that only comes from you, so he see's you chained to the value/success of that toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: get a new one that only comes from you, so he see's you chained to the value/success of that toy. the other two were never his, they were mine from the start and were never available other than in play with me. but ok thanks will get 2 new ones, if I can find the blooming things - cant find them in the pets shops for a while now... must be all of your customers buying them out :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: & here is a twist, this is why I allow other say fear aggressive dogs to play with my GSD.Now someone has got to question this based on the other thread. K9": comon class, Im going to be calling on people soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: & here is a twist, this is why I allow other say fear aggressive dogs to play with my GSD.Now someone has got to question this based on the other thread. I would assume that the "fear aggressive dog" having received no reaction from your GSD and hence no value, would become neutralised ...... This would be bringing the value up from a negative, to a "0". ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: that does help, but the main point as far as mine is concerned is that he has no play drive for the other dog, this means he see's them as neutral & this is nice for them as they dont get overwhelmed by big GSD all over them, they have to try & get his attention & he can put them into pack drive fast, so they are chasing him etc etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9": comon class, Im going to be calling on people soon... nah... I will just sit at the back and watch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: mine ... see's them as neutral ...., they have to try & get his attention & he can put them into pack drive fast, so they are chasing him etc etc.. this would assume the fear aggressive dog is neither neutralised to your dog, nor preferring to ignore through avoidance, in which case the fear aggressive dog would have no interest in your dog. This would then serve as an exercise with desensitisation qualities ..... ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison1474 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 :rolleyes: I'm now confused...... (not really very hard for me... but still) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 :p I'm now confused...... Sorry Alison .... I've probably got the whole thing cross-wired - follow me and I'm sure to get you lost. My road navigational skills are similar !!! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 E: this would assume the fear aggressive dog is neither neutralised to your dog, nor preferring to ignore through avoidance, in which case the fear aggressive dog would have no interest in your dog. This would then serve as an exercise with desensitisation qualities ..... ???? K9: now were thinking, thsi is correct, the fear aggressor initially triggered by my dog goes into defence, after a period of time with no reaction, some ob & guidancem defence drive goes out. Now fear aggressor can look at my dog clear headed, when we see this I may play with my dog, this kicks pack drive into fear aggressor, as he wants to part of that game, I can then either desenstitze or intro them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: that does help, but the main point as far as mine is concerned is that he has no play drive for the other dog, this means he see's them as neutral & this is nice for them as they dont get overwhelmed by big GSD all over them, they have to try & get his attention & he can put them into pack drive fast, so they are chasing him etc etc.. My dogs have absolutely no interest in playing with other dogs or between themselves really when I think about it (as I did when I read of dogs romping in another thread). Yesterday for the first time in months I took my older dogs to a local park, not to train but for time out, they were so focused on me (bearing in mind they knew I had a retrieving article in my back pocket), I felt sorry for them not having the joy of a free walk. That being said, they are not robots, as in retrieving trials they are expected to hunt out of sight without direction from the handler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterpaws Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I'll take a punt Because you are his pack leader and he trusts you to protect him therefore unlikly to react unless you give him the green light to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) I suppose so, but my dogs generally have no aggressive behaviour. They like me, are lovers not fighters. I think I know a lot about training gundogs, but am very aware I know virtually nothing on, for example, protection/police dogs. Edited: Opps a daisy, your reply might have nothing to do with my dogs, sorry. Edited November 4, 2005 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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