Prey Drive Control & Focus..

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: yes you want the only stimulation the dog recieves in the drive development section to be from you... Dont swap drive rewards food & prey, in my opinion, it only weakens the dogs perception of the reward.

Edited August 28, 2006 by K9 Force

[shekhina]

I am annoyed at the moment because Kovu and I SHOULD be moving into the next stage of the program...but one of my neighbours dogs from over the back are making it near impossible.

Once again his bitch is getting into my yard (I think he may have fixed the fence last night) but they're starting their retarded barking all day now, and it's wearing Kovu down. The drop in drive is quite evident

[Kavik]

caninecoach - re small breeds - I would get a Jack Russell for drive work

[wheres my rock]

yup have looked at them before did some work with one years ago great little dogs but i dont like the look of many of them im pretty fussy with looks and white hair is a pain in the butt and they actually drop a lot of coat

at the moment im thinking min pin maybe

[Rom]

I'd like to ask a favour of everyone who has worked with K9:

If you have doggy friends that live in South East Qld or Far North NSW that you think would like to come along to a Training in Drive workshop, we're holding one in Gympie 23rd & 24th Sept and would love some help to get the word out!

Cheers,

[Australdi]

WOOHOO!!!!! I have just read all 27 pages of this thread! (come on someone...give me an award! )

K9.....my issue doesn't seem to be covered as yet, although at times it's been alluded to :D

my first Dobe (PB) Daim's was highly prey driven, however I trained him out of that through pack drive...and ended up with a very reliable, trustworthy, but fearsome dog when he really had to be....he was exactlly the type of dog I wanted,

I'm the sort of person who is wiling to experiment though, so this time with Zillah (16 mth old PB dobe rescue dog) I'm giving your training methods a go...

my big question is...both Daim's and zillah show very high prey drive (probably due to their breeding ) as both dogs are/were primarily being trained as companion dogs....I do not want to encourage the natural guarding instinct beyond property and personal protection. I achieved this with Daims, however, Zillah is showing an even stronger prey drive...and he's a very quick learner :D ...the downside is, I am not yet confident to let him out in an off lead situation outside the backyard due to his high prey drive. (I've only had him for 5 weeks) I actively train my dogs in pack drive & I am alpha!...this seems to achieve good results without disrupting the natural prey drive....so in your experience...am I doing the wrong thing?

Zillah is training up very fast and already treats me as alpha...including cleanining all my toes, ears etc & following me around like a brown shadow :D ..he also looks straight to me for conformation on command as to how he will respond to prey temptations and will hold a stay until I release him (all in 4 weeks of training) his stay around food results in a puddle of drool on the carpet! hahahahaa!

I also tend to train in "dog language" first (as I was trrained by a very wise bitch), then verbal, then visual...Zillah already responds to all modes of "correction & praise"

so where I'm leading...is that I have a dog that has a very high prey drive which I can control in controlled situations (ie: home & backyard) via pack drive. but...am I actually making things hard for myself down the track because I am actively controlling the prey drive.

I won't play tug of war with zillah...he releases & he gets a reward, he doesn't and he gets a growl...I actively train against the "bite" (mostly due to the negative press that dobe's receive) and ask for the release each time. A mouthing, results in a growl from me!....this is the way I trained Daims, and he would only ever flip into attack mode when I was personally being threatened, otherwise, he would put up with the worst manners that could possibly be displayed. I could also call him off with one command, if the threat retreated..which was just as I wanted him.

so I suppose my question is twofold....am I training the "wrong" way...and can the same results be achieved another way that is demostrabably superior?

from what I understand from reading these threads, is that I do train in prey mode, but I also add pack mode to the training so that I have total control over my dogs. believe me, I'm not arguing against prey drive training, I'm just questioning it's appropriatness in a breed that shows highly developed prey drive as instinctual & curbing that so that it doesn't become a liability :D & just pointing out IMH experience, that pack taraining can providew that balance

....don't get me wrong..I have found this whole thread facinating & informative!

AUs

[Kavik]

Australdi

I think you are confusing prey drive training with personal protection training. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand. You can use prey drive in training without this causing pack problems or guarding issues. Yes prey drive is used when teaching protection work, but you can use prey drive for other things.

I am encouraging prey drive in my Kelpie for motivation in agility. Believe me he is not a guarding prospect

I found with Diesel my GSD that I had suppressed his prey drive too much to use it effectively in training (although I am encouraging it now he does not display it well enough). He is also far from a guarding prospect with or without prey drive training.

Prey drive is useful for getting a high energy response and for me this was best demonstrated at the SAR workshop that I attended. The dogs used there were Labs.

[Australdi]

Kavik

I understand what you are saying...but I'm working with dobermanns...they have an inbred stong prey drive....very strong

both my pure breds were/are being trained as companion dogs first...however, their guarding instinct is so imprinted that it is not something you can train out of them....only hope to contol :D ..So what I'm trying to get at is that I am working from the opposite direction...most people want to increase prey drive in their dogs....but when you're dealing with a working dobermann...this is not something you want to encourage...it's already there in abundance :D ...the secret is harnessing this drive via pack leadership, so that you control those drives and therefore create a dog which is trustworthy in any situation :D...and will ultimately look to you for it's direction :D.....otherwise, you have a liability on your hands They are highly trainable....but require very strong alpha leadership to control their imprinted temperment....this is a dog that if it senses a weakness...will make decisions for itself!

my experience could be different to other dobe owners...however both pure bred dobe's that I have owned have had extremely strong prey drives, which due to current legislation, I have had to actively curb in my dogs

cheers

Aus

[MonElite]

I also think that you consider prey drive as a bad thing in a way that your dog will be chasing some objects/aminals etc. If you teach the dog that you control the prey object there isnt a reason for it to chase other objects except yours.

I have made the same mistake as Kavik and supressed the drive in my older dog, controlled him highly in difficult situations hence now he only goes into prey drive when we are alone and there are no big distractions, but will not in presence of dogs and lots of humans.

The baby girl although weaker in nerves than him and finds crowds an overwhelming experience will with some time goes into drive and chase a toy in the middle of a busy street.

Neither of my dogs are PP prospects and I have no desire for them to be in a way unfriendly to anyone ever.

If you read this thread you would understand that those of us that want to train in prey drive encourage it instead of training it out of our dogs. (Although some made this mistake already, havent we Kavik )

[Livi]

The whole topic makes me dizzy...I am wondering should I just wait for my lesson or try to learn something before ?

I can't fathom how to get Jones into "drive" as he isn't really into toys at all

Well I can get him hyped for a ball but only short term...bores easily ??

[Kavik]

K9 Force uses prey drive to develop the control you desire instead of using pack drive. So a high drive dog is useful instead of a liability in this case as you are harnessing the dog's drive instead of trying to control it.

When I was training with some people who did security work, most of the dogs used were GSDs and Rotties, I didn't see many Dobes.

But the main thing is to do what works for you. Personally I am having some problems getting my dogs to generalise with their prey drive - they get too excited when out and about and aren't interested in playing tug when on walks even if they are fine at home. But I am coming from a perspective of someone who has always used food to train, and I am finding the switch a bit difficult.

[MonElite]

Prey drive and guarding instinct (which is defence drive) dont have much in common in a "raw" dog.

I understand that your dogs come from working lines and have a stronger prey drive than lets say my show couch potatoes, but the only difference is that you need to satisfy the drive more than I do.

Prey drive is a desire to chase, catch and "kill" the fast moving objects. You make it a person than you have a problem you are talking about, you make it a ball than you have a happy friendly dog.

[MonElite]

The whole topic makes me dizzy...I am wondering should I just wait for my lesson or try to learn something before ?

I can't fathom how to get Jones into "drive" as he isn't really into toys at all

Well I can get him hyped for a ball but only short term...bores easily ??

He either doesnt have enough prey drive or you supressed it.

Id say he hasnt got enough, after all he is a son of Rex that hasnt got much of it.

Just keep reading, it will click one day and you will understand it more or less.

The key to developement is to play and finish before he gets bored, so next time he wants more of the fun.

[Livi]

So if he doesn't have enough prey drive can I still train him ?

To recall under distraction, to heel properly ?

[Livi]

He either doesnt have enough prey drive or you supressed it.

Id say he hasnt got enough, after all he is a son of Rex that hasnt got much of it.

Not to mention the fact I CASTRATED him

Well not personally, I paid someone else to do the dirty work

[MonElite]

of course sunny you can. Just not using prey drive training but other methods.

You will learn about them at your lesson. You might be happy to know they are not difficult, in fact a lot simpler than prey drive training

And castrating him had nothing to do with it.

[Australdi]

Prey drive is a desire to chase, catch and "kill" the fast moving objects. You make it a person than you have a problem you are talking about, you make it a ball than you have a happy friendly dog.

I know dobe's are intelligent....but IMHO....let them have free reign...and a ball and a human doesn't seem that much different

but just to contradict myself (as you will eventually learn is a part of my psyche....) Daim's could make that distinction...he could tell whether the threat needed to a) be ignored b) be played with) c) stirred up) or D) taken down.

he really was the ultimate dobe...as he was both companion & trustworthy, but also indomitable in the face of true threat! without saying too much..he was trained higher than the average companion dog ....and yet, this was his primary role, which he fullfilled par excellance :D ...even though I used a combination of training methods with him...the one constant was pack leadership...I was always his alpha...even when he tried to challenge me :D

and although I am incorporating K9's methods into my training for Zillah....I am still maintaining "alpha" as my primary training tool. & it's working quicker on Zillah than it did on daims!....I'm speculating that is because zillah is de-sexed :D]

to be honest..there are only very small differences in the way I train my dogs to the way K9 trains them :D...the exceptions being, that I don't use tie backs...my dogs tie up fine...& just having the food in front of them & my control is enough to keep them in drive. & my alpha status, I achieve the same way a dog would....I lay them down & growl and bite the scruff if necesssary.....then hold them in a drop stay, for however long it takes It only takes me one challenge..(which I have to win of course) and they then look to me as alpha & this is reinforced by feeding regimes, reward allocation & effective growls when behaviour oversteps the mark acceptable. I can't express how effective this method has been for me & can only say that it results in such quick results that the dog's reaction blows you away! ...& yet it does nothing to decrease his drive, nor does it result in a dog that is unsure in it's confidence In fact, you end up with a dog that is very sure of himself, highly tolerant to provocation, but ready & willing to protect when it is absolutley nescessary! ...and that is exactly what I want from my dogs

like I said...I'm wearing a flame proof suit & am happy for anyone to take me to task over my training methods....but the proof of their effectiveness was in Daims....a dog I could trust implicetly, but always knew he would protect me if there was not other choice :D...I'm not a dogmatic person (no pun intended) & am open to any ideas & theories which enhance the training & wellbeing of dogs ;) ....I'm just sharing my own experience ;)

Aus

[Livi]

Aus it sounds to me that you are very happy with your training methods and results, so that is all that matters.

[MonElite]

and although I am incorporating K9's methods into my training for Zillah

and how are you doing this? Considering you have not trained with K9........

to be honest..there are only very small differences in the way I train my dogs to the way K9 trains them ...

I dont know what your exact methods are and I can only judge them on what you put in here, but I have somewhat of an idea on K9s training methods in practice and I see differences already. Weather they are very small or very big its just a matter of a personal opinion.

I lay them down & growl and bite the scruff if necesssary.....then hold them in a drop stay, for however long it takes :D It only takes me one challenge.. (which I have to win of course)

I havent seen K9 do that ever, and I have only seen him train dogs like about 50-100 hours.

He makes a fool of himself in other ways :D (dont you K9?) but not by holding down and growling and biting the dogs.

yet it does nothing to decrease his drive,

what does it do? :D

nor does it result in a dog that is unsure in it's confidence :D In fact, you end up with a dog that is very sure of himself, highly tolerant to provocation, but ready & willing to protect when it is absolutley nescessary! ...and that is exactly what I want from my dogs

ask westielover if she could do that to her resent rescue, and what effect would it have on Spencer........

I dont really think it would be an ideal mothod for my girl either.

Im happy that whatever you do works for you, if it does that is GREAT noone says there is one way to train the dog, its just a matter of finding out what method works for which dog.

Edited September 13, 2006 by myszka

[Red Mal]

I achieve the same way a dog would....I lay them down & growl and bite the scruff if necesssary.....then hold them in a drop stay, for however long it takes

Alpha status, pack leadership is not always achieved like this. Within many packs, the Alpha is the more relaxed dog, as he knows he has nothing to challenge. In my pack, my Alpha only needs a glancing look or certain stance to portray his status. By holding your dog down until he submits is forcing him to obey, not teaching him how and why to obey and that it's for his benefit. Eventually any dog will submit this way, or take your face off !