Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Steve K9Pro]

I thought about writing this thread so many times, now is as good as any.

People often talk about that they have socialised their dogs, now its time to move on to something else.

Socialisation is never done, it should continue on as necessary for the life of the dog.

There is also a great misunderstanding about what socialisation is? Often people feel that when they have an aggressive or timid dog, it needs to be socialised. This is untrue.

Socialisation in it's simplest form is introducing your dog to a new item, be it dog, cat, stairs, noise & teaching your dog that it has a value.

Some people also believe that you should teach your dog that some items, such as other dogs have a positive value, in other words, are fun to be around.

I don't agree with this but nor do I stop people from doing it. I just don't do it.

I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valuable, not anything else.

This makes every type of training go so much smoother & faster.

I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog.

This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc.

Allowing your dog to run free with many other dogs is a huge risk, many temperament defects such as unresolved pack issues, rank issues & fear issues can surface in a heart beat, resulting in your dog being attacked or attacking another.

For those who like to see their dogs play with others, they also should know the risks.

I want my dog to see me as #1, there really is no #2. It also removes the possibility of dogs destroying my dogs temperament & my dogs becoming too distracted by other dogs when I need them focused on me.

my plan is to take my dog everywhere I can when it is around 8 - 14 weeks, I run it up stairs platforms & teach it to ignore people & other dogs etc.

I make noises bang things & so on train all the moves, develop the drives I want.

The next 8 or so weeks I keep the dog at home when its in the first fear period, this enables me to help my pup avoid the pitfalls in public.

When I see the dogs temp firm up again, its time to start some serious training, by 10 - 12 months, the dogs training can be 100 % reliable, even though some think you cant get that, you can.

I use the model (K9 Pro website) to help people understand temperament flaws.

I would be interested to hear others thoughts on this.

Edited October 5, 2012 by K9Pro

[Staranais]

Does that mean you never let your dogs play with other dogs at all, K9, in case they get hurt or scared?

Or do you just mean you need to thoroughly check out the temperament of the dogs that you let your dog interact with, and make sure you're in control of the situation at all times?

*edited for sense!*

Edited November 1, 2005 by Amhailte

[Kelpie-i]

I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog.

This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc.

Allowing your dog to run free with many other dogs is a huge risk, many temperament defects such as unresolved pack issues, rank issues & fear issues can surface in a heart beat, resulting in your dog being attacked or attacking another.

For those who like to see their dogs play with others, they also should know the risks.

Amen to that K9! I totally agree with you. The situation is that today's dog owner does not have the skills and knowledge on how to do this precisely. Therefore for the safey of others and of their own dogs, socialisation provides a safety net from possible aggression issues which would most likely be the result if they didn't socialise.

To an expert trainer/handler, tolerance of all things around is what you are after from your dog, to the average layman owner, they want happy dogs that they can walk with and take to the park. Some owners take delight in their dogs frolicking in the park with others and rightly so.

But I do agree with you in that this has it's risks and when you are expecting 100% compliance from your dog, you don't want him turning "ga ga" whenever it sees another dog.

[Toohey]

Steve thanks for posting this topic and giving us your thoughts.

Can I present some real life scenarios I have at present?

First one, an 8 year old ex show/breeding bitch who has had little exposure to the real world, is staying with me temporarily at present.

When I take her out in public she becomes very nervous around strange dogs and flies at them. Some dogs she finds less threatening than others and is OK after a tentative sniff. I keep her on a lead and talk to her and tell her she is a good girl as the dogs approach, and she seems to be doing the flying thing less after a couple of weeks of this. Am I managing her correctly?

Second scenario, I am getting a new pup soon who will be at least 12 weeks old because her breeder wants to run her on a little.

I am nervous about the fact I won't have her from 8 weeks as I have always believed, and have experienced with my other dog, that the earlier they are socialised and trained in the basics such as toilet training, the better they absorb and remember. Your post states to keep them home during this fear period, so are my concerns unfounded?

Thanks again.

[FHRP]

I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog.

8 - 14 weeks, I run it up stairs platforms & teach it to ignore people & other dogs etc.

How do you actually do these things?

Your aims are what I have heard from a number of other trainers. I think some of it comes down to what we want from our dogs though.

Edited November 1, 2005 by FHR

[Guest Tess32]

My first reaction is to dislike the idea that the dog enjoys nothing but things that come from me.

Maybe if the dog has lives on the line and needs absolute reliability...

I guess I want my dog, like any living thing, to enjoy other members of its species, to enjoy playing by itself with a ball etc.

It depends what you want out of a dog. We all have different ideas of acceptable risks. Personally the sight of my dogs enjoying a good romp with their other doggie friends is more valuable to me than a perfectly reliable obedience dog.

Out of interest, do you ever let the dog have toys by itself? And do your dogs ever get to play with other dogs?

Nat

[Anna H]

QUOTE 

I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog.

This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc.

Allowing your dog to run free with many other dogs is a huge risk, many temperament defects such as unresolved pack issues, rank issues & fear issues can surface in a heart beat, resulting in your dog being attacked or attacking another.

For those who like to see their dogs play with others, they also should know the risks. 

Amen to that K9!  I totally agree with you. The situation is that today's dog owner does not have the skills and knowledge on how to do this precisely. Therefore for the safey of others and of their own dogs, socialisation provides a safety net from possible aggression issues which would most likely be the result if they didn't socialise.

To an expert trainer/handler, tolerance of all things around is what you are after from your dog, to the average layman owner, they want happy dogs that they can walk with and take to the park. Some owners take delight in their dogs frolicking in the park with others and rightly so.

But I do agree with you in that this has it's risks and when you are expecting 100% compliance from your dog, you don't want him turning "ga ga" whenever it sees another dog.

I couldn't have summed this up better myself! I totall agree

[Lablover]

Diva, Diva, Diva.

Sorry!!! the mighty mare.

Had a couple of drinks this afternoon. Had to, its been hot.

I am getting to the point.

What makes a champion? Sound nerves, right?

Nerves, nerves, nerves. I love this subject!!!!!!

[Erny]

Lablover - .... one hangover coming up, me thinks. Back to the topic? This is interesting ...

[Sayreovi]

My first reaction is to dislike the idea that the dog enjoys nothing but things that come from me.

Maybe if the dog has lives on the line and needs absolute reliability...

I guess I want my dog, like any living thing, to enjoy other members of its species, to enjoy playing by itself with a ball etc.

It depends what you want out of a dog. We all have different ideas of acceptable risks. Personally the sight of my dogs enjoying a good romp with their other doggie friends is more valuable to me than a perfectly reliable obedience dog.

Out of interest, do you ever let the dog have toys by itself? And do your dogs ever get to play with other dogs?

Nat

I agree i dont want my dogs not to enjoy something unless it comes from me.

While i understand that you require that type of obedience the average pet owner/trainer doesnt well i know i dont.

My dogs are companions first and foremost everything else comes second, i want to see excitement on my dogs faces when they are doing something they love that doesnt involve me.

[Kelpie-i]

Lablover -  .... one hangover coming up, me thinks

Too right!!!

[Lablover]

I am sorry. REALLY!!! this is a subject which I am very interested.

Around the world, especially since 9/11 many countries have joined forces (if you will) on this very topic.

I apologise for my fever.

[Staranais]

It depends what you want out of a dog. We all have different ideas of acceptable risks. Personally the sight of my dogs enjoying a good romp with their other doggie friends is more valuable to me than a perfectly reliable obedience dog.

Not trying to start an argument, cos like you say it depends what you want out of a dog, but I've got to say I feel exactly the opposite! I think that it's nice for my dog to be able to play with his dog friends, but that it's not worth any decrease in his off leash reliability. I wouldn't ever let him off leash to play unless I was confident I could recall him back.

I figure if he's some how gets off leash one day and sees a dog across the street, I want him to listen to my recall instead of deciding to take off after the other dog. It's just a safety thang.

[Guest Tess32]

I wasn't talking about recalls, I'm talking about an obedience dog in general as K9 seems to be saying that having a dog's enjoyment all stem from him creates a dog that is easy to train in other ways because it is more focused and not distracted by the environment.

I am saying I wouldn't sacrifice the dog romps in order to get a fully reliable dog.

Now I assume we're talking really really really reliable, as in, heel through fire kinda reliable and not just "come Rover!" when we're down at the park.

That said, as far as recalls go, since my dog had off leash time with other dogs, I never saw a decrease in his recall, in fact I think it improved. My bitch, who has what most people would consider a pretty great recall is not effected by it either.

Nat

Edited November 1, 2005 by Tess32

[Erny]

I am saying I wouldn't sacrifice the dog romps in order to get a fully reliable dog.

I differ there - I wouldn't sacrifice a reliable recall to the whims of dog romps ...

The dog romps might be nice for the dog .... but the recall can be injury and/or lifesaving. I'd like to get my recall reliable first.

[Guest Tess32]

I am saying I wouldn't sacrifice the dog romps in order to get a fully reliable dog.

I differ there - I wouldn't sacrifice a reliable recall to the whims of dog romps ...

The dog romps might be nice for the dog .... but the recall can be injury and/or lifesaving. I'd like to get my recall reliable first.

As I stated before *I'm not talking about recalls* - I'm talking about the kind of dog I interpret K9's post to be about, a dog that is fully focused on the handler and so has an extremely high level of focus and obedience.

Obviously recalls are a big part of obedience, but I took K9's post be general and about the dog's general focus etc?

Anyway, back to the big picture - I'm sure K9 did not intend this to be another debate strictly about recalls and dog parks, but about socialisation and neutralisation, as the topic suggests.

Nat

Edited November 1, 2005 by Tess32

[Rusky]

Lablover you are fantastic I hope you had a win today to go with the shampoo???

The dog romps might be nice for the dog .... but the recall can be injury and/or lifesaving. I'd like to get my recall reliable first

yes of course and recall from dog romps is important too. I think it is an important part of socialisation which needs supervision and a fast recall, on lead, not off lead.

Dog body language needs to be watched with doggy socialisation, I hate it when I see people talking and one dog is 'standing over' the other dog which can't do all it would like to show it is submissive cos it is hooked tight on the lead with an owner not watching.

[ness]

This may or may not be directly on point but sometimes I wish my 5 year old BC would actually play with other dogs rather than give me 110% attention all the time so I guess I have the opposite problem or rather what some people think is more desirable.

I was discussing this tonight with a few friends at training. It makes exercising her very difficult. She isn't a big retrieving dog so we just can't go to an oval and play ball. Whenever we are out walking she is heeling (and I have long given up even acknowledging her presence except when I ask for it). So one wonders how I am suppose to exercise her when she just won't run. There are only so many hours in the day that I can walk her and everybody knows that walking doesn't burn up that much energy. I thought the behaviour would diminish over time but its just got stronger. We go to the oval and she has had a lab hanging off one side and a BC pup on the other and yet she still was heeling with me .

I will declare my hand in saying that I am pretty much a positive trainer so have heavily rewarded heelwork with food in the past and still do when practising.

So given I have this attention any suggestions about what you might do to exercise an obviously active breed who seems to think she has to give attention to me and that manifests itself by heeling.

Edited November 1, 2005 by ness

[Vickie]

I think I'm somewhere in the middle. My older boys went pretty much everywhere I did as pups & spent a lot of time at dog parks as they got a bit older. Me encouraging them to play with other dogs decreased as we became involved in agility. They still go to dog parks but tend to coexist with other dogs rather than play with them. I usually only enter with them if I know the other dogs there. Generally they are wanting to play ball & focus pretty much on that, whether or not I oblige .

With Trim, I have done things a bit differently, for many of the reasons K9 has stated. She is fine around other dogs and will play with some, which I am happy for her to do, at home, or one on one. I have never encouraged her to play in a big group of dogs for lots of reasons...I don't want her to get hurt, I don't want her to learn to work other dogs, I don't feel she needs to deal with the different temperaments of dogs belonging to the average dog owner, many of whom don't have any control over their dogs. When she is herding or at agility, she doesn't want other dogs in her face. I don't consider that she lacks socialisation, she is just focussed on the task. She is not aggressive, but quite clear about her lack of interest in them and I am happy for her to be this way.

It's possible I would feel differently about all this if I wasn't involved in sports & if I had a breed of dog who was more likely to want to play with other dogs.

Mine all play at home with each other, not constantly, but they do have little romps.

[Rusky]

just also thought to mention something else after reading Vickies post, lots of people live with several dogs so there is a social pack of dogs, all dependant on the leader fo course. Also friends dogs or dogs at puppy school can become part of a 'loose pack' as I call it if they meet regularly, even if they don't play, just train together.

Interesting topic socialisation combined with neutralisation, food for thought.