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Socialisation & Neutralisation


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K9 wrote

K9: try thinking of some of the things you dont like, you might find they are connected with the things you do...

Tess

Sometimes they are worth it

K9: opionions vary, dogs dont understand sometimes, they will let you down under the highest distraction & comply under lesser ones, thats the opposite to what you need.

In no way am I saying here this is what everyone should do, its what I do & many of my clients have done & are doing, some of them for the second, third 10th dog.

Majority of people here that have training questions would not have these questions had they followed this program.

Tess:

It comes down to the type of dog you want, the type of life you want for your dog, and the type of relationship you want to have.

K9: I dont know anyone that doesnt want a dog that listens to them, trains easy & is compliant.

As far as the relationship with the dog goes, Im going to guess that you havent tried this program, so I dont think your qualified to comment on the relationship or lack there of that it may or may not create.

Running the theory through your head makes for great daydreams, daydreams dont maike good training programs... lol

Tess:

I noticed you mentioned your dogs don't offer behavours for example, and you don't want them to. Fair enough - but for some of us I'd bet that's one of the most valuable aspects of entering into a training relationship with your dog, and there really is nothing I enjoy more than seeing my dog figure out a problem and try things and offer behaviours.

K9: As I remember, it was you who asked me the question...

Having a dog problem solve creates stress, the dog gets satisfaction out of finding success, but stress out of working it out.

This is a pressure on pressure off system that many softer dogs crumble under.

I get enjoyment out of teaching my dog exactly what I want it to do & watching it do it, exactly as I have taught & get faster at it. This brings the dog satisfaction without the stress.

You may enjoy watching your dog play guess what mum would like to see, but many more people just want the dog to do what they want, easily.

For every behaviour your dog offers, there is a 50% chance it will be something you dont want. That means no satisfaction for the dog, I wont use a training program that has (at best) 50% chance of success for the dog.

Tess:

If this makes him less reliable, I don't care - it makes our training relationship rewarding to me, and hopefully to him, and I wouldn't swap it for a more "perfect" performing dog. That doesn't make me unenlightened and walking around a flat earth, btw

K9: reliability only seems to come into place when the sh1t hits the fan. Poor planning really...

Tess:

K9: its your choice what you do with your own dog/s, but telling us what you would like to see with every creature on earth isnt going to fly unfortuneatley.

This doesnt remove the dogginess from a dog, it stops them being too doggy. It doesnt remove independance, as dogs are always dependant on the pack leader.

As I have seen dogs raised many ways, both mine & a thousand other ways, I can tell you that only positive things come from my way with the lowest risk factor possible.

Tess:

Perhaps some people might think this is positive training waffle and mumbo jumbo,

K9: I would prefer to call it, someone without a problem dog & without high goals trying to tell others in those situations how it should be...

M:

If I had a choice between my dog sleeping when Im not there and my dog digging holes in my yard and pulling washing off the line when Im not there, I choose him sleeping any day.

K9: I have watched hundreds of hours of video of dogs through the day without anyone home, over 90% sleep 90% of the day, toys or no toys...

Toys linked with you provide play drive or prey drive satisfaction, watch a dog play with its toys by itself, not so much fun.

Tess:

Collies are great for me - Easy to train, not destructive, not hyper, not very dominant and family oriented. It's all about choosing the right breed and knowing your limits.

K9: the first thing you should know is that the limit is in your head, the second is that the limits your imposing rule out the majority of dog breeds for you, finally, your method of choosing the right breed is of no use to someone who already has a dog.

Tess:

I've had two GSDs and wouldn't have another

K9: not everyone enjoys driving sports cars either.. :thumbsup:

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M:

K9 when you are not at home, when there is noone home for long time, (obviously something not usual at your place) your dogs stay together? What do they do?

K9: prey for someone to try & break in... lol.. Lay about.

Hunt rabbits birds & the occasional neighbour.

*******************

H

I'm not looking for 'high level standards', nor am I 'desperate' to train in prey drive. What I am working with is the concept that drive blocks fear.

K9: then if your struggling with prey, how is food & pack drive?

H:

but I don't have the luxury of not working with what I have,

K9: bravo, can you imagine going to a trainer that said, your dog hasnt got enough drive to be a pet, get another one? Or choose a breed more suited to you?

H:

Will definately have to bring him on the 18th.

K9: that would be great.

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Is there any easy test that can tell you what drive your dog is?

Ive done a test on Nova and it says he has Pack Drive but i dont believe this as he is more interested in food. Would like to do a test on Darcy

K9: the tests themselves arent difficult, interpreting the results takes experience.

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Is there any easy test that can tell you what drive your dog is?

Ive done a test on Nova and it says he has Pack Drive but i dont believe this as he is more interested in food. Would like to do a test on Darcy

K9: the tests themselves arent difficult, interpreting the results takes experience.

OK then, is it possible for you to drive test Darcy at the seminar?

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Not only can I imagine it K9, I lived it for the 9 months or so that i had him before joining ADT. Every other dog club I approached and a very well respected delta trained behaviourist turned us away, deeming him beyond help.

He will sometimes take food rewards, but not if he is stressed. Never at training, or in the presence of someone he doesn't know. Makes for a great food refusal demo as I can put food in his mouth and he will spit it out :thumbsup:

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Interesting topic everybody.

Is there anything you can do if you have situational specific prey drive to generalise it more? As in loves chasing things they shouldn't - noisy moving objects, birds, bikes but lose interest in toys? I have been working at getting her to play with a tug rope and whilst she is getting better and occasionally has the intensity I want its not all the time yet.

As for the whole having toys to play with at home bit - apart from one favourite soft toy that sits in her crate and despite the fact she has balls left laying around she is only interested in them if I initiciate a game.

Edited by ness
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:thumbsup: Not sure what you're saying Lablover :worship:

I have done the NDTF cert III in dog behaviour and training and the cert IV canine behaviour specialist. I've had dogs all my life but only been really involved in training dogs since I got Loki nearly 4 years ago. I teach obedience classes, but certainly wouldn't profess to know even a small percentage of everything!

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OK.... my turn for a question.........

Is it prey drive or just being a cheeky bugga that makes Chopper destroy everything as soon as we walk out the door. He has a million toys, mini pool etc but instead he will kill remotes, shoes, magazines, dig holes etc etc etc :thumbsup::worship::worship:

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Tess:

Oh dear, sorry, thought this was an open discussion and everyone's ideas would be respected!

K9: Its open for you to comment, but respect is earnt, at least thats the way i see it. I cant say I will respect your ideas when they fall outside of my beliefs, studies, tests & experience.

Your certainly welcome to post them though.

I suggested that the experience I have dealing with hundreds of clients has given me the idea that everyone wants a compliant dog, I thinks that a through test, although it doesnt cater for people who dont care for any obedience or respect, those people never come & see me I guess.

T:

OK then, is it possible for you to drive test Darcy at the seminar?

K9 to a degree, tests start outside of distraction & move into distraction, usually.

H:

Not only can I imagine it K9, I lived it for the 9 months or so that i had him before joining ADT. Every other dog club I approached and a very well respected delta trained behaviourist turned us away, deeming him beyond help.

K9: well thats nice...

H:

He will sometimes take food rewards, but not if he is stressed. Never at training, or in the presence of someone he doesn't know. Makes for a great food refusal demo as I can put food in his mouth and he will spit it out

K9: I will try to take him on my leash at the seminar, unless he is too stressed, then I will have a look at him lunch time. Ninaandted have a great little lab girl that I'm working with, the methods I used on her may give you a break through...

May not too, depends on many variables..

N:

Is there anything you can do if you have situational specific prey drive to generalise it more? As in loves chasing things they shouldn't - noisy moving objects, birds, bikes but lose interest in toys?

K9": this comes from satisfaction from the other items being greater than the toy, the idea of what Im talking about here is to overt that from happening, but for now, your dog should only see failure from attempting prey drive satisfaction from anything other than your one toy.

N:

I have been working at getting her to play with a tug rope and whilst she is getting better and occasionally has the intensity I want its not all the time yet.

K9": this means your dog needs less wins of the toy & more frustration, this will elevate drive for the toy.

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Al:

Is it prey drive or just being a cheeky bugga that makes Chopper destroy everything as soon as we walk out the door. He has a million toys, mini pool etc but instead he will kill remotes, shoes, magazines, dig holes etc etc etc

K9: probably not, but not enough info to tell, if he is the Staffy in the pic it could be separation anx.

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K9 wrote:

this comes from satisfaction from the other items being greater than the toy, the idea of what Im talking about here is to overt that from happening, but for now, your dog should only see failure from attempting prey drive satisfaction from anything other than your one toy.

Ah ok - bloody difficult if you ask me but I can see where you are coming from.

K9 wrote:

this means your dog needs less wins of the toy & more frustration, this will elevate drive for the toy.

Ok I always thought the opposite - the more I let her win the more she stayed in the game. I might try what you suggested about teasing the dog and not letting them get the toy. She has come a long way from where she was in this though.

Thanks K9 for the suggestions.

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I just wanted to ask a few questions.

**I agree about whats said about pups and strange dogs but what about your own dogs and when introuducing a new pup into the home how much time do you allow with the other dogs so they don't become too attached to them and not you ?

**Theoretically you had a genetically solid nerved dog that had minimum socialisation as a pup, how would you expect it to react to new situations as an adult ? would it be really nervy, shy ?

I've always socialised my dogs heaps because as 8week old babies they were shy, but have never had a dog who was solid nerved, so i just wondered.

Edited by kateshep
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N:

Ah ok - bloody difficult if you ask me but I can see where you are coming from.

K9: very easy, set her up to see prey, she goes to chase, you make her fail, then immedietly start with your toy game. Over & over again until she knows where success comes from, you.

N:

Ok I always thought the opposite - the more I let her win the more she stayed in the game. I might try what you suggested about teasing the dog and not letting them get the toy. She has come a long way from where she was in this though.

K9: dog that has low drive = more captures, dog that has high drive less captures, every dog the game always ends with you making the dog try & get the item & miss, then you put toy away & leave dog to wish she had tried harder, & next time she will.

The above is a basic drive elevation game.

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although it doesnt cater for people who dont care for any obedience or respect, those people never come & see me I guess.

:thumbsup::worship:

Now THAT has certainly answered a few of my questions.

As you keep saying, your program is not the ONLY option, and so maybe those people just have other people to see or get the same thing in other ways :worship:

Nat

Edited by Tess32
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