pgm Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 K9: take one step further back, packs (wild) would never allow another dog or wolf to enter the pack, play with it or any such thing... Thats in line with my program. Expecting a dog to befriend every dog it comes accross is against that.... But this is precisely the kind of socialisation that I am referring to. A well socialised dog knows not to run up to other strange dogs. How many times have I heard people tell me not to worry about their dog running up to mine because "ïts only being friendly". Neither the owner nor their dog understand what good dog manners consists of. As you said, many dogs don't like strange dogs running up to them regardless of whether they are being friendly or not - a well socialised dog understands this and behaves accordingly. K9: sure, many people state that you cant have Personal Prot dog ready in under 2 - 3 years, not all, many. I have trained all the moves & had a dog woprking perfectly by 12 months. I wouldnt deploy that dog until it reaches mental maturity though.. No different from her approach - I presume you don't employ the dog until it reaches maturity because lack of maturity can create problems in unpredictable situations. Again I can't see any difference - apart from the neutralisation. The method that you use does not allow for drive, a dog making its own decisions is outside of the Koehler Regime... No it isn't. I can't say that based on experience, but I can say that I know of at least half dozen Koehler trainers on a different list (all with over 30-40years experience) that will strongly disagree. Indeed, the whole purpose of the method is developing self-control in the dog, so that it will behave correctly (according to right action) without constant supervision or command. I believe many people do not see or understand this aspect because of their misunderstanding of complusion. Every Koehler trainer that I have ever read on the other hand speaks of the method in precisely the terms of development of self control and autonomy in the dog. And they speak glowingly in terms of a well trained dog having the maturity to disobey a command when the situation demands it. Like the police dog taken to a crime scene only to bite the victim - a terrible mistake. A week later they found out the so called victim was in fact the perpetrator. I can only tell you the way these trainers speak - and they speak about the method and its results in exactly the opposite manner to the above. K9: supervision isnt control, when you supervise two dogs together, if a fight breaks out, all you can do is alert the media (in other words REACT). Then its too late... I presume that this situation rarely if ever occurs under your supervision. I imagine you would say it doesn't occur because you are able to read the dogs body language and intervene before a fight escalates. I believe you - have no reason to doubt your word. As she has been doing it for forty years I see no reason to doubt her either. As to believing her, I know her from a dog training list that I read where she is well respected by many experienced trainers who have met and worked with her over many years. I believe her for the same reason I believe you - most of what you say makes good sense to me. I just don't follow you on the neutralisation. Of course, I agree that you shouldn't let your dogs run free unsupervised in an uncontrolled enviroment. My point regarding sheepdog trainers was not that they allow their dogs to run free unsupervised - but that the highly rewarding and valuable (to the dogs) activity of chasing and herding sheep does not compromise reliability, so long as the trainer maintains control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 My dog has been to the vets about 10 times in his 6 years. Blood tests, stiches under general anastetic. he is not worried, in fact he thinks visit at the vets is great fun But I have to say this would be one of the last things Id worry when I think about bringing a puppy up. But this is precisely the kind of socialisation that I am referring to. A well socialised dog knows not to run up to other strange dogs. How many times have I heard people tell me not to worry about their dog running up to mine because "ïts only being friendly". Neither the owner nor their dog understand what good dog manners consists of. As you said, many dogs don't like strange dogs running up to them regardless of whether they are being friendly or not - a well socialised dog understands this and behaves accordingly. Well "socialised" dogs on the streets - the biggest worry for me..... got chased by a GR on sunday. Around the block, around corners, around fences, gates, cars and trees where I tried hiding. Run out of breath and possible hiding places... arrrghhhh At least the dog was friendly... but mine wasnt.... After the owner fianlly cought up with us I MADE him stand there hold his dog and I let Rex sniff the dogs back end and than say hello nicely. The guy just did what I told him to do he had no option I told him that next time instead of trying to get away with my dog I will just unclip the lead - and he belived me Appologised 30 times in 3 minutes. I think what majority of people think by a "well socialised dog" term is that the dog is not agro and wants to play.... with anything, and everything, and anyone and everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 another 2 cents worth and I would appreciate K9 to look at this issue from the trainers perspective and see if there is ANY way around the issue. I note that K9 works with animals not children I have said my dog is a 'family' pet. What this means is that it is neither practical NOR desirable that I be the ONLY point of command. neutralisation to ALL but me is not on the cards! The point of a 'family pet' is the kids have something that they love, and it loves them. For the kids to be 'neutral' really defeats the purpose. They alread complain that the dog loves me more than she loves them. OK, seems like I had the perfect dog to "neutralise" - but I don't want to do that. The kids WANT to interact with the dog, and I want the dog to "naturally" interact with them! Then there is OH to consider *sigh* Only yesterday he patted his thigh and said the dogs name. Dog looks at him confused. I ask him what he expects dog to do. He says he wants dog to come. I state that he has to use commands taught, put arms in air and call "come" and dog romps to me. I touch her collar and she sits. I remind OH about commands, he puts one hand in air and calls "come" and dog goes to him. Honestly, kids may need less reminding that OH. That being said, kids encourage dog to jump up to say hello, then complain dog jumps up to say hello. Are we now all feeling for the poor dog here? Given most dogs are family pets... Kids want demonstrative love from dog. Neutralised dog will not give that. Dog in family situation WILL (unfortunately) get mixed messages. I don't think my situation is abnormal. what to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petmezz Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 hi this is a realy interesting topic, i can see K9's point, a very interesting way to train a dog. i also fell that this method will work for some family pets, though i don't see the average JO putting the time and effort into this form of training. for to nutralise the dog to sittuations it would need to have LOTS of soculisation, all be it with Nutral stimulass, but it is still soculisation the puppy IS reacting with the enviroment, just finding no rewords with in it but that handeler gives the best rewords possable. Am i on the right track here K9 Force? this form of training could be very usfull, i have done a simular thing with my huskys and sledding but deffinatly not to it's full potential. need to learn more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 petmezz this form of training could be very usfull, i have done a simular thing with my huskys and sledding but deffinatly not to it's full potential. need to learn more Is that so you don't get to go bush if they see a rabbit or deer etc ? Have occasionally wondered how that problem would be overcome. myszka Jeff - GSD was a dead give away when it rolled on its back when the owner tried to put the leash back on after it finished... That's a bit sad when you consider the dog had finished working. I was watching the news and the camera happened to be on a service person he did a sudden turn oon the spot his dog (Rotti) hit the deck the handler wasn't even looking at the dog. In my inexperienced mind ( with service dog training) having a dog with that type of mindset could leave moments where the handler and dog are vunerable....no??? cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I have to add, I wish my dogs, would go and find their own fun. Sometimes they drive me crazy, always expecting me to provide "it". OK, already, lets go training. Nag nag nag. Just who is training who here? LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 K: Having worked at the vet, it is much easier for everyone if the dog is not worried about the handling etc for procedures, taking blood etc. Especially if the dog is big! K9: Im afraid your not getting it.... My dogs dont dislike nor like the vet, so there is no issue.... PGM: But this is precisely the kind of socialisation that I am referring to. K9: from memory it was you who said the lady in your example looked at thing differently... Not me. A well socialised dog knows not to run up to other strange dogs K9: The term well socialisedmeans something different to everyone. Most people try to get their dogs to love other dogs, call it socialisation... Then try train them not to run up tp other dogs, call this well behaved or trained. I presume you don't employ the dog until it reaches maturity because lack of maturity can create problems in unpredictable situations. K9: only because it wouldnt be fair to work a dog in full defence drive before it matures... There are developmental reasons. No it isn't. I can't say that based on experience, but I can say that I know of at least half dozen Koehler trainers.... K9: Sorry, I cant compete with heresay... I know at least 300 trainers that have told me they can do many things that they could not... I know of at least half dozen Koehler trainers on a different list (all with over 30-40years experience) that will strongly disagree. K9: well they are wrong, if therew were 3000 they would be wrong too... & I am talking from experience.. Indeed, the whole purpose of the method is developing self-control in the dog, so that it will behave correctly (according to right action) without constant supervision or command. K9: Every training methods goal is to develop self control, this one just does it via extinguishing drive. Thats a known fact. Whilts thats fine for many dogs & situations, its not for many others... I believe many people do not see or understand this aspect because of their misunderstanding of complusion. K9: whilst many people do get it wrong, fewer accept that compulsion reduces drive... And they speak glowingly in terms of a well trained dog having the maturity to disobey a command when the situation demands it. K9: why would anyone using a certain method speak glowingly of it? Only an idiot would use a method thaqt didnt believe in? I presume that this situation rarely if ever occurs under your supervision. K9: it rarely occurs as I avoid these situations... As she has been doing it for forty years I see no reason to doubt her either. K9: as the cig companies say 20 billion smokers cant be wrong... I would rather boast results then leash time... I have seen woeful trainers with more years than me.. This lady may have the worlds best method, biut if it relies on 40 years experience, its relatively ineffective.. Mine avoids problems so a novice can accomplish it easily... Training dogs is about teaching their handlers, to me. If its too complicated, they will fail in turn I fail.... ************************* K: What this means is that it is neither practical NOR desirable that I be the ONLY point of command. neutralisation to ALL but me is not on the cards! K9: then dont do it.... no one is asking you too... The point of a 'family pet' is the kids have something that they love, and it loves them. For the kids to be 'neutral' really defeats the purpose. K9: the kids in your family dont have to be neutral... Then there is OH to consider *sigh* Only yesterday he patted his thigh and said the dogs name. Dog looks at him confused. I ask him what he expects dog to do. He says he wants dog to come. I state that he has to use commands taught, put arms in air and call "come" and dog romps to me. I touch her collar and she sits. I remind OH about commands, he puts one hand in air and calls "come" and dog goes to him. K9: the oh dont have to be neutral either but seems he is... He wont need the commands or signals if he learns to control pack drive... Are we now all feeling for the poor dog here? K9: spare a thought for me, Im not a barman you know this is a realy interesting topic, i can see K9's point, a very interesting way to train a dog. i also fell that this method will work for some family pets, though i don't see the average JO putting the time and effort into this form of training. for to nutralise the dog to sittuations it would need to have LOTS of soculisation, all be it with Nutral stimulass, but it is still soculisation the puppy IS reacting with the enviroment, just finding no rewords with in it but that handeler gives the best rewords possable.Am i on the right track here K9 Force? K9: not exactly... This program takes less work, like teach one command, "not sure? come to me". That's a bit sad when you consider the dog had finished working. I was watching the news and the camera happened to be on a service person he did a sudden turn oon the spot his dog (Rotti) hit the deck the handler wasn't even looking at the dog. In my inexperienced mind ( with service dog training) having a dog with that type of mindset could leave moments where the handler and dog are vunerable....no??? K9: very much so & its very common...when the service work is patrol style work, this action highlights the dog is rained via fear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 K9: spare a thought for me, Im not a barman you know Thank you for your good humour K9. While all too late for my own pooch, how does one make the kids not 'neutral'? I can make them important in MY eyes, but if their behaviour is erratic (in leadership etc. terms) to the dog - what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 K9 : have the kids run my TOT program & practice the nilif as best they can... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 K9 : have the kids run my TOT program & practice the nilif as best they can... ahhh, so you HAVEN'T worked with children? Can I have a G&T while I tell you about it? *cheeky grin* Seriously tho, they are constantly reminded. Older child was even sent to obedience school with pooch, but without 'instant results" gave up (do I blame computers?). Younger child tries harder, but with high voice doesn't seem to get the dogs attention and gets discouraged. She is the main one who complains dog loves me more than her. Today had a visiting dog who is well obedience trained - I could get him to sit/drop/wait/return to heel, but when young daughter tried it the dog only looked at me! She was saying the right words and doing the right actions, but he ignored her. He knows her as well as me - so wt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemibabe Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Do your kids feed the dog? my son feeds our dog 50% of the time and only now has she just started to listen to commands from him. He's been feeding her for a few weeks now. She has always sat for him, but now drops and we are working on the stay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Gemi it IS generally me who does the feeding - will start instigating this with the kids. Pooch WILL do things for DD for treats, and she also practices the 'come' game with me (again with treats). Pooch is also very sweet with her and allows her self to be occasionally dressed up (yesterday it was fairy wings! ). I wish DS had kept up the training, as I already had the dog in a more advanced class we WAS progressing nicely (albeit dog had to be dragged onto the field as she didn't want to leave me, but she would settle pretty quickly - and I would hide! ). He'd intended to get her up to doing agility (something I'm not sure I am fit enough for) - but then after the summer break he refused to go back as 'she didn't listen' to him. oh well, he IS going into those teenage years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 ahhh, so you HAVEN'T worked with children? K9: course I have. NILIF the kids play invisable dog when the dog is missbehaving, TOT is childs play.... Seriously tho, they are constantly reminded. Older child was even sent to obedience school with pooch, but without 'instant results" gave up (do I blame computers?) K9: actually Television is the cause of short attention span.... Today had a visiting dog who is well obedience trained - I could get him to sit/drop/wait/return to heel, but when young daughter tried it the dog only looked at me! K9: body language & control... Use the TOT with your kids, you start the process they continue it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Years ago the aggressive dogs per capita were much less, Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 K9: theory is that as dogs were allowed to roam the streets more, there was better socialisation than our best efforts produce today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Would that also be that years ago dogs were treated more like dogs (lets say harshly) not like family members sleeping on leather lounges? Hence they would see the owners as true alpha? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) I do not know about anyone else, but I am finding this thread very confusing. My dogs pretty much ignore everything and everyone, except me as they know what triggers/turns them on. Back I go, reading this thread again in its entirety. Edited March 16, 2006 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 My dogs pretty much ignore everything and everyone, except me as they know what triggers/turns them on. Unless I've misunderstood - I think that's the idea lablover! K9 - i've done a forum search for TOT, and also looked at your site - can't find anything more about "TOT" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Triangle of Temptation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Thanks mysxka! I already do that with her, but with a sit/stay. So just gotta get the kids feeding her. She has her main meal in the morning, and a small amount of dry early evening - the evening 'snack' would be a convenient one to start making the kids responsibility and they could take turns. Ta heaps. and, hmmm, 'triangle of temptation' - reminds me of Meet the Parents and the "circle of trust'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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