Erny Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Erny, Im good friends with a breeder of pink elephants , Ill let you know if there are any upcoming matings. They also breed miniture ones, from time to time I needed a good laugh to start my day, thanks guys An ethical breeder? I only want one with good hip and elbow scores. I want him to be de-sexed and microchipped. I'm a big elephant person, rather than a little elephant person. Oh .... and no DE's (ie designer elephants) please. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Erny I would only recommend a good ethical breeder. You might not be aware but hip and elbow displ is not an issue, but a big thing to check the angulation and flexibilty of the trunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 K9: I was able to find a spare few minutes on the weekend & brought my dogs out for a session to see if I could use either one in the drive workshop coming...I probably wont, reason being that when a prey item is presented they feel it will end in biting a person, we cant really have that.... I always wanted to wear this bite suit thing.......... Than again maybe its not such a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 I have got another question. This time its in regards to guide dogs. From what I understand a pupp goes onto living in a family enviroment and at the age 12 months (?) its training starts with the guide dog people. I used to meet in the park a guy that would have the young pupps potentially going to be guide dogs, the dog he had, run around with Rex, was certainly not neutralised. So wouldnt it be better for those young pupps not to be in the family situations? They can be used to chasing cats, have dog issues, be willing to chase bikes, cars etc by the time they grow up. How do guide dog peole train and overcome the problems? Do they overcome the problems or do they just discard the puppy and choose another one etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 So wouldnt it be better for those young pupps not to be in the family situations? They can be used to chasing cats, have dog issues, be willing to chase bikes, cars etc by the time they grow up. How do guide dog peole train and overcome the problems? Do they overcome the problems or do they just discard the puppy and choose another one etc? K9: They ouwl be better to neutralise, but on that scale Im sure they think its too expensive. They do wash dogs out when the dogs wont respond the way they like... Leonard was a failed Guide dog.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 too expensive? is it cheaper to wash XX dogs to get one good one? of course I dont know how many they wash out, but I cant imagine it be a small number considering that pupps get into everything pet dogs do than suddnely all the freedom is taken away form them.... Do guide dog people pay puppy care takers? I have also walked with a lady that had two labs that were failed drug detection dogs.... I wonder how many dogs go through those programs and get rehomes deemed not suitable, where in fact they actually were suitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Kavik - I have plenty of agro or friendly dogs as well. I had one neutral dog, you have met him at K9s - Benny a GSD belonging to casima. I love Benny, but casima moved out of Sydney Hmmm, Have you forgotten about me and my dog already. Geez, i didnt even charge you for the experience. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) PAX - NEVER that I forget your dog (dogs in fact)! However my desentitisation program using your dogs is highly not practicle, or are you moving to Sydney :D Edited March 13, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 No, but you must due for another holiday. Sorry back to the topic :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) No, but you must due for another holiday. Is this in invitation? Rex has been walking in deeper and deeper water, Chris is screeming for more fish..... Or do you want to see more of this sort of tortures applied? But I thought you are visiting me at Easter for a change..... as a WAE coordinator I need volounteers for the test, I have majority but need an agressor - do you want to do it? :D -------- Sorry everyone back on track. So whats the story with drug detection and AQIS dogs, how do they get picked for the work? Are they also placed with families and than trained? Edited March 13, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Do guide dog people pay puppy care takers? Taken from Guide Dogs NSW Site: Puppy Raisers are responsible for feeding, grooming and exercising the dogs daily, along with basic obedience, house-training, and visits to the vet when needed. Despite this important training however, the pups are first and foremost puppies, so plenty of games and tummy scratches are a must. In relation to neutralisation for dogs, I met a drug detection lab the other day (at the Wellington Vintage Fair) who worked for Corrective Services and the Handler said he got him at about 9 months old from the pound. He didn't seem neutralised (and wouldn't have been as a pound puppy I wouldn't imagine) as he still reacted when he saw a Golden Retreiver (he still didn't go running towards it though) but he still would have been happy to work for the handler as they get trained using prey drive etc. K9, in your opinion, can a dog that still has positive associations to eg. other dog be a 100% reliable dog (obviously owner has to be number 1)? I would imagine the dog would have to be trained in prey drive (and toy would be number 2?) and this would override the association to the dog? I can see the advantages of neutralisation, I think there would be much less chance of distraction - if a dog has a positive or negative value to something eg. dog they will be more easily distracted which then leads to safety concerns. Obviously dogs are still trained under distraction even if they have a positive / negative value to things but I think next time I will try and do it K9 Force's way from the beginning to avoid problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 M: too expensive?is it cheaper to wash XX dogs to get one good one? K9: Sorry Im K9 Force, not Guide dog assoc... K9, in your opinion, can a dog that still has positive associations to eg. other dog be a 100% reliable dog K9: I would say yes, but the chances are less likely... It would also take more training... I would imagine the dog would have to be trained in prey drive (and toy would be number 2?) and this would override the association to the dog? K9: I alwasy try to ascertain what value the dog has on other dogs, scale 0 - 10, if its ten, you will have to put in a lot of work, you will also have to use aversives, which reduce drive, the over all performance of the dog will be less than that dog could have been had it been neutralised. Allowing your dog to get a high value for other dogs makes your training slower & your results weaker, with no positive gain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 K9: Sorry Im K9 Force, not Guide dog assoc... I thought you have answers to all dog related questions :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 K9: Its not a dog related question, its a question related to the Guide Dog Assoc training & socialisation program... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 K9, not wishing to challenge your experience but I find this whole discussion interesting given your different approach to other trainers I know of. Here is a training log of a very experienced American trainer who trains all of her dogs from puppy's in a yard full of other dogs. She runs a day care and B&T facility. Now if you asked her she would tell you it takes two years to get a really well trained reliable dog (up to service dog standards - or utility obedience standard). She would also tell you that raising her dog amongst other dogs is crucial for their development in terms of teaching the dogs proper manners around other dogs and people. I would be surprised if her dogs are less reliable than yours, given that they are trained as service dogs and go wherever she goes. I guess the difference as far as I can tell is that you seem to expect your dogs to be 100% reliable to command whereas she expects reliability and good manners without the need for constant supervision or commands. I could just be reading your posts the wrong way, but that seems to me to be the difference. Pity you can't have a discussion with her - the differences in approach intrigue me. Her weblog is here for anyone who might be interested: www.sanityshome.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 P: Now if you asked her she would tell you it takes two years to get a really well trained reliable dog (up to service dog standards - or utility obedience standard). K9: many people have a varioed opinion on what reliable is... It also depends what type of service we are talking about. Competition OB is a little different as it can be trained through a pattern, either of drive satisfaction (pref) or containing drive... The other thing is, maturity aside, dogs can be trained to be 100% reliable well before 2 years.... Maybe thats why she needs two years? She would also tell you that raising her dog amongst other dogs is crucial for their development in terms of teaching the dogs proper manners around other dogs and people. K9: she is using the generic program where as Im not... Im happy with the communication skills dogs learn in the 8 weeks they are with litter mates... After that its only reinforcing what they have already learned... I then control other meetings.. Years ago the aggressive dogs per capita were much less, hence it was ok to allow your dog to roam the streets & get socialised.. Not so these days... I would be surprised if her dogs are less reliable than yours, given that they are trained as service dogs and go wherever she goes. K9: well thats a big call on your part, having never seen my dogs work or hers :D You can teach a dog to be well mannered & not cause any problems by beating all the drive out of it... The dog will be a non reactive dog thats suitable to take to retirement homes etc... Certainly wont be capable of the service work that I would train for.. Instead of looking at what people say, use your own feelings about how a dog is trained, you will see what I mean if you do this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 :D Can somebody please tell me the difference in neutralization and socialization. My understanding of neutralization is that the dog learns to ignore/put into the background, etc., stimuli that are "outside" the sphere of the work the dog is doing. Socialization OTOH, to my mind anyway, is getting the puppy used to all sorts of stimuli, eg. passing pedestrian traffic outside a coffee shop, car travel, train travel etc. and other dogs & people likely to be met in the daily activity round etc.. (to name just a few experiences). TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 K9: socialisation is exposing the dog to new experiences & events & asigning a positive value or association. Neutralisation is the same only the value is neutral. K9: there is another thread about a dog chasing sheep.. The dog does so as it has a positive value for the sheep, prey drive satisfaction... Its like this, why would you allow a dog to chase & catch sheep, if you later wanted the dog to ignore sheep & comply with commands when sheep are around? The answer is that you wouldnt... Same applies, why let your dog get a high value for dogs if you want it to comply around them? The way it will be done is with time & most likely aversives, as suggested in the sheep thread... Why do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 pgm: from the site: I'm telling you, I don't think she is going to get to live to see her first birthday. And to add insult to injury one of her short buddies, a Westie named Butchie was in there with her. If that wasn't bad enough they had been in the goldfish pond and had managed to kill the last of the goldfish. While Sanity jumped through a small opening in the ramp railing, Butchie had managed to dig his way under the new gate. So this weekend the opening will be sealed with lattice work or wire or something and I will figure out a way to fix the area under the gate so there can be no more digging. Maybe I will just put concrete down, that would fix them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I started to read your suggested link, but, really................. I must be missing something. I gave up after a few more diary entries. Just imagine changing a couple of words, say from FISH to SHEEP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 K9: well there you go.... May perform like mine but mine dont dig or kill goldfish lol... Our fences are also only approx 4ft high & both dogs have been trained to climb up to 9ft walls in their day.. They dont leave the home as they are well settled there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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