Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The club is not an avoidance style club, mainly uses food motivation. I don't normally go to that club, probably won't again as it is a diferent instructor. But the club I normally go to is mostly food, trains for competition, doesn't mind me doing things differently. So no club training at all? I have no idea how long it will take to build Diesel's drive to the point where it is really useful - getting better but still not great. I can only do a few short drive sessions with him a day - what am I supposed to do in the meantime ? He really enjoys going to training, and so do I (I like the social aspect as well ) He is the dog I can take with me to social outings - family gatherings, picnics, etc - it is more stressful taking Zoe because of her dog aggression. I don't see how I can still take him places if I don't do at least some control work with him - people don't appreciate a full on GSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 IMO it is rude for anyone to feed someone else's dog without asking. Apart from anything else, the other person would not necessarily be aware of what you're training for (could be food refusal, for example) or whether your dog has food allergies or intolerences. Even at club, if I feel a food treat will help, I always ask the owner if it is ok for me to give it and if the dog has a "pass word" for eating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) K9: what for? what gain? Something to do with the dog. No gain, no goal, break the boredom. It so just happends that lots of my friends are dog people.... yes we can meet without the dogs, but I rather with, my dogs spend too much time alone as is. K9: lol like that worries me... That was to ilustrate that there is a smaller chance of the off leash dogs coming over K9: I can get you about 30 from memory... Feel free to emial me the list Im not the only one that would want to do some work with those dogs and people. Shame that they most likely wont want to see me....... K9: You dont go to the club...K9: yet another reason not to go to the club Yet another reason to do "our own" club guys...... Im going to put forward in my club a class that will concentrate on drive training, wish me luck.... Edited March 8, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 K: The club is not an avoidance style club, mainly uses food motivation. K9: if its any style of training other than teaching your dog to go into high prey drive & then control itself to gain drive satisfaction from you, it will be drive deminishing, as the dog will learn that satisfaction is available in ways other than with the toy... k: So no club training at all? K9: no training at all other than your drive work, if you want to every get it useable... I have no idea how long it will take to build Diesel's drive to the point where it is really useful - getting better but still not great. I can only do a few short drive sessions with him a day - what am I supposed to do in the meantime ? He really enjoys going to training, and so do I (I like the social aspect as well K9: I would make a decision as to whether he will be able to or not, doing both will just slow things down... He is the dog I can take with me to social outings - family gatherings, picnics, etc - it is more stressful taking Zoe because of her dog aggression. I don't see how I can still take him places if I don't do at least some control work with him - people don't appreciate a full on GSD K9: training in drive is a pro program, not one where you can do many things & this as well... If you put in mediochre work you will get those results, pro programs are designed to provide pro results. If you use your dog for a social companion, obedience club dog with food motivation, dog park running, & in your spare time you give Training in (prey) drive a whirl, you dont stand a chance of getting any reasonable response out of your dog in any of those areas. You have to focus on just one thing if you want to win at that... M: Something to do with the dog. No gain, no goal, break the boredom. K9: Risky for the dog, compromises training.. Breaks the success.. M: It so just happends that lots of my friends are dog people.... yes we can meet without the dogs, but I rather with, my dogs spend too much time alone as is. K9: Thats fine with me, its just that you wont get the results you want with a training in prey drive program. Those who have multi uses for their dogs always seem to struggle getting really great results, thats where the problems lie... Yet another reason to do "our own" club guys......Im going to put forward in my club a class that will concentrate on drive training, wish me luck.... K9: great idea but the dogs will need to have enough drive to ignor the group of dogs, know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) Didnt you see how my dogs reacts to others, even in his own territory? I have seen your male twice, once on lead with my dog once with the CAO. Although it gives me an idea, I dont think I get a full picture. Never seen your female interact with other dogs. You have to focus on just one thing if you want to win at that... Have you heard how is Jenny with Begian Rex going? I belive she was on the neutralisation and prey work program? If you use your dog for a social companion, obedience club dog with food motivation, dog park running, & in your spare time you give Training in (prey) drive a whirl, you dont stand a chance of getting any reasonable response out of your dog in any of those areas.You have to focus on just one thing if you want to win at that... damn How about do the drive work, compete and on top of that have a social companion and occasionally do dog park running? Not achieveable? Maybe Ill just get a cat , they dont need to go out. K9: Risky for the dog, compromises training.. Breaks the success.. I had more incidents walking my dog on a suburbans street than anywhere else. Those are more risky than anything else I have done with my dog. K9: great idea but the dogs will need to have enough drive to ignor the group of dogs, know that. Considering that the chief instructor of my club is attending your drive workshop with her dog, maybe there is a chance that not only we will do it but also be able to identify the dogs suitable for the work. Edited March 8, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 So what am I supposed to do? Leave him in the yard all day when he is not training? Training sessions for drive work as you know are very short, he will go nuts and I will get complaints from neighbours. He will get very bored if all he gets is a few short drive sessions - seeing as he doesn't work well until around evening time. And I will also get very bored with no dogs to walk or take to training And one of the pleasures of owning a dog is to take it places and meet people. Much easier and more relaxing when dog friendly like Diesel is, he is the first I have had like that. Although I would love to compete with him, he is still my companion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I also agree Erny that it was quite rude to come around and give a treat to every dog. Not only for the obvious food refusal someone might be doing, but since most of the people are using food as their motivator, what chance do they have if someone else is also handing out food? She could have at least told us what she was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I thought about it overnight a bit Neutralised dog or not - For someone like me that lives in the suburbia there is a daily risk of taking my dog out of my backyard. I took him for a walk last night, just on the streets in my suburb. In an hour I came across about 15 dogs. One GSD eye to eye as it came from around the corner the same time as I came from another side. GSD wanted to eat Rex... to which he of course responded. Nothing happened, but Id rather not have my dog growling back at anything. 4 dogs were off lead including one rottie. I have noticed them early enough and walked other direction. I am guessing this is an average evening near my house. The closest leash free park that is desent is 15 minutes drive from my house. Its an open area where I can walk away far enough from any people and in case I see someone call my dog. I dont mind driving there, but there is a risk of leash free dogs coming over to my dog. I have an option of breaking the law and letting my dog run on the golf course (which I already do and Im chased by the care takers on regular basis) or in another park that is not leash free. As there is no way my dog will get enough excercise in my yard what is the solution? As none of the above scenarios is safe/practical/responsible. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 M: I have seen your male twice, once on lead with my dog once with the CAO. Although it gives me an idea, I dont think I get a full picture. K9: I dont think it was ever meant to be a demo on neutralisation... M: Have you heard how is Jenny with Begian Rex going? I belive she was on the neutralisation and prey work program? K9: exceptionally well, but she was not trying to neutralise, the whole thread explain how you cant neutralise after a value has been set... I seen her dog after there were problems developed... M: I had more incidents walking my dog on a suburbans street than anywhere else. Those are more risky than anything else I have done with my dog. K9: So if you add suburban streets to dog parks & clubs... Your sure to get negative results... Considering that the chief instructor of my club is attending your drive workshop with her dog, maybe there is a chance that not only we will do it but also be able to identify the dogs suitable for the work. K9: theres always a chance, but if you choose the right dogs, then try & get training in drive programs working with social companionship, dog park runner... You will still be in the same place your in now... I certainly wouldnt think that someone would leave my workshop & become an instructor on something they just learned either... ************************************** K: So what am I supposed to do? Leave him in the yard all day when he is not training? Training sessions for drive work as you know are very short, he will go nuts and I will get complaints from neighbours. He will get very bored if all he gets is a few short drive sessions - seeing as he doesn't work well until around evening time. K9: do you know this or think this, training in drive is very mentally exhausting, try it & see... K: seeing as he doesn't work well until around evening time. K9: this just really cant happen, he has to work any time.... And one of the pleasures of owning a dog is to take it places and meet people. Much easier and more relaxing when dog friendly like Diesel is, he is the first I have had like that. Although I would love to compete with him, he is still my companion. K9: You need to decide which you would prefer, I cant help you with that, Im just providing you the info on how to do one of those... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9: I dont think it was ever meant to be a demo on neutralisation... you have asked if I have seen your dogs around other dogs, I replied. K9: So if you add suburban streets to dog parks & clubs... Your sure to get negative results... whats the solution? By the looks of it Im not moving out of suburbia any time soon. I certainly wouldnt think that someone would leave my workshop & become an instructor on something they just learned either... From what I understand she has been an instructor for years, she is open minded and always expending her knowledge. I will encourage her to potentially change some methods in our club, how sucessfull will I be? Who knows........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 M: whats the solution? By the looks of it Im not moving out of suburbia any time soon. K9: why not remove the dog parks & clubs, thats 2 out of three... M: From what I understand she has been an instructor for years, she is open minded and always expending her knowledge. K9: Well I have trained dogs for years, but what Im getting at is, if I attended an Elephant training workshop, I wouldnt come home & start training other peopls Elephants... One might start by getting a dog, training it & expanding from there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9: just having a quick rethink about some of the replies here... I can only give you the steps to success with these programs, if they dont suit your dog or lifestyle, thats a decision only you can make.. I can tell you that if you want the serious results these programs yield, you cant compromise the programs with other training styles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 On a personal nte - Im removing suburban streets, this is where I have majority of problems, majority of uncontrolable dogs. The leash free park I attend is a huge open area, I can see for "miles" and walk far away enough not to get in any close distance to anyone else. Plus Id never go there in peak times as is. Gotta love the golf course what a shame they dont like me there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I'm in the same boat as myszka. They've gotta have exercise somehow! So it looks like I have a few options: 1) do drive training only. I'm still not sure he has enough drive to make this worthwhile? Seriously in backyard he will work, front yard sort of, training sort of, park or streets or new areas, won't even look at the prey item. Doesn't matter what I do, I've tried having it on a string, throwing the prey item, throwing the prey item between two people, kicking the prey item, high value praise for any interaction with the prey item - people watching must think I'm mad! It is very frustrating! 2) Go back to the food spitting with Diesel - works well. Still needs more work though. Go to ob club and take him places. Do drive training from the beginning with the new pup who should have more drive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9: Well I have trained dogs for years, but what Im getting at is, if I attended an Elephant training workshop, I wouldnt come home & start training other peopls Elephants... Damn it, Steve .... I was gonna start on elephants tomorrow . Looks around for more elephant workshops to attend ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 what would be a good prey item for an elephant? my elephants scared of mice how should i go about socializing an elephant to a mouse? and can elephants compete in schutzhund? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Jeff - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 what would be a good prey item for an elephant? Peanuts Sorry to butt in here, I've just been reading some of the many posts. If I read correctly, there was a question asked about how to control prey whilst not actually controlling it? Are you teaching a "not yet" or "wait" cue or something similar? I normally teach an "enough" command when working a dog in drive, this way he learns that he needs to give up the item and wait before it is reinstated. I only reinstate the item once the dog is sitting and anxiously waiting for the next round, then give him the "are you ready" cue to initialise the drive and finally the on-switch word. It may seem like a whole heap of words but the dogs soon learn what each mean. Would this be the correct procedure K9? It's been working for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 my elephants scared of mice how should i go about socializing an elephant to a mouse? You need to desetitise your elephant to mice Remember mice need to be neutral, not agressive nor playfull and can elephants compete in schutzhund? Only if they are pink. :D :D Erny, Im good friends with a breeder of pink elephants , Ill let you know if there are any upcoming matings. They also breed miniture ones, from time to time I needed a good laugh to start my day, thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 K: They've gotta have exercise somehow! K9: Drive training is excercise... K: do drive training only. I'm still not sure he has enough drive to make this worthwhile? Seriously in backyard he will work, front yard sort of, training sort of, park or streets or new areas, won't even look at the prey item. Doesn't matter what I do, I've tried having it on a string, throwing the prey item, throwing the prey item between two people, kicking the prey item, high value praise for any interaction with the prey item - people watching must think I'm mad! laugh.gif It is very frustrating! K9: What needs to be done is as I have suggested many times, 3 times per day, 3 mins per time, 7 days per week, 3 weeks. No other training.. At the end of that time, you will either know you have the drive or you wont... As you havent done this your still (months later) struggling... Your dog hasnt learned that there is prey drive satisfaction available else where, the minute he lets himself go at training (which is what you want to happen) you think thats him going wild & you try & put control on him.... This is the opposite to what you need to do if you want drive... One reason I tell people about the three weeks drive building is that, if they wont put in three weeks of work, its a good indication they wont have the discipline required for training in drive later on... I'm sure its torture for you trying to do many things & none of them working as you would like, give up on training in drive & go back to food spitting, but he needs to start having a lot of food spat at him, like feed him that way or you wont have success there either... *********************************************** E: Damn it, Steve .... I was gonna start on elephants tomorrow frown.gif . Looks around for more elephant workshops to attend ... K9: lol well Im sure you know what I mean lol... *********************************************** J: what would be a good prey item for an elephant? K9: An Indian... my elephants scared of mice how should i go about socializing an elephant to a mouse? K9: neutralise not socialise.... lol... and can elephants compete in schutzhund? K9: yes its Called Schutz phant... ************************************************ Are you teaching a "not yet" or "wait" cue or something similar? I normally teach an "enough" command when working a dog in drive, this way he learns that he needs to give up the item and wait before it is reinstated. I only reinstate the item once the dog is sitting and anxiously waiting for the next round, then give him the "are you ready" cue to initialise the drive and finally the on-switch word. It may seem like a whole heap of words but the dogs soon learn what each mean.Would this be the correct procedure K9? It's been working for me. K9: If it works then it works! It depends the end goal for the dog, some bite work may not want the dog dropping the item that easy... In Kaviks situation were still building drive, so I dont do any focus work yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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